You Might Be an A$$hole: Not all Feedback Is A Gift

Someone can sound “helpful” and still be out of line. We’re unpacking a messy leadership reality: feedback only helps when it’s grounded in intent, consent, and context. When it isn’t, it stops being a growth tool and turns into ego, control, or someone else’s personal preference dressed up as professionalism.

Katie tells a real story from a leadership program where a fellow facilitator books time on her calendar under the guise of aligning sessions, then delivers unsolicited “tips” about her credibility, her examples, and how she should run a room. We break down why that kind of critique hits so hard, especially when you’re riding the high of doing great work, and why “feedback is a gift” can be a harmful mantra when it pressures people to accept every opinion with a smile.

From there, we get practical. We use a crucial conversations lens to define the difference between feedback and preference, and we share simple questions leaders can ask before offering critique: am I helping them succeed or making them more like me, is this about results or my comfort, did they ask, and do I have enough trust built to be heard. If you’re on the receiving end, we talk about how to look for evidence, give yourself grace, and then flush the rest without letting it steal your confidence.

If this resonates, subscribe, share the episode with a colleague, and leave a rating or review on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. What’s one piece of feedback you wish you’d ignored, and what’s one that truly helped you grow?

Follow us on LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/rhondajhale/ and https://www.linkedin.com/in/katieervin/

www.jolyean.com

www.katieervin.com

Check out Rhonda's Etsy shop:  https://www.etsy.com/shop/ThingsForge

Order Dr. Katie's books: 

• 52 Weeks of LEADERship:  https://shop.ingramspark.com/b/084?params=afiG9oMq4YoXnvxsSD9PDjTrezQvZd6A7vBE1T2yaGz
• You Might Be an Asshole: https://shop.ingramspark.com/b/084?params=O4ZMvNNamwFzFFUAjJB1s6pjudAiHrUlcUX0iMUlzI6

Learn more about Catalyst LEADERs Institute:  www.katieervin.com/leaders

 
Theme music by Emma Jo https://emmajo.rocks/

Transcript

Welcome Back And A Hot Take

Dr. Katie 0:32

Hi everyone and welcome back to The Path to Leadership. I'm Dr. Katie.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:36

And I'm Rhonda Jolene.

Dr. Katie 0:37

And we're so thrilled to have you with us. We've had a couple fun weeks of Marks being on the podcast. We had Mark Mears and we had Mark Schaefer. And now we're back to just kind of talking about some of the stuff that's happened in our lives lately.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:53

Yes. And we wanted to talk about kind of hot topic, if you will. Katie

Why “Feedback Is A Gift” Hurts

Rhonda Jolyean 1:02

and I rarely disagree about things. But if you've been listening to the podcast for long enough, you know that Katie always says, or not always, but when someone mentions feedback, Katie has said in the past, feedback is a gift. And I have said that I hate that saying. And the reason is because I have had people in my life that have, I think, utilized feedback as a weapon, utilize feedback in a condescending way. Yes, I am also a very empathetic, sensitive person. So feedback doesn't always hit me in a gratitude bone, if you will. And so I need to work on that. And yet, Katie, you are telling me that something might have changed in your life. So do you want to tell us what your thoughts are about feedback today?

Dr. Katie 2:09

Yeah,

Katie Changes Her Mind

Dr. Katie 2:09

yeah. So I I did always say feedback is a gift. And I am a firm believer in growth mindset, and we have to be open to feedback because we can't get better if we don't know. And you know, all of the things I still believe are true. I do think feedback matters. I just I I have now learned that all feedback is not a gift, and don't all feedback doesn't deserve the same value. So I I concede not all feedback is a gift.

Rhonda Jolyean 2:47

And you know, listen, I believe that feedback matters, and certain feedback matters with intentionality. I'm sure you'll talk about this. And that the most important thing is having the growth mindset. So in that falls feedback somewhere. So I think you and I have always agreed on the growth mindset and being open to that, and with that comes feedback. But I would love to hear more about what made you change your stance on feedback as a gift.

The Unsolicited Calendly Feedback Call

Dr. Katie 3:19

Yeah, what has happened? So I'm not gonna say this person's name, they will know who they are because I have a fun follow-up to it. But and and I'm gonna say this person's gender because as a woman, I've only had a similar situation happen a couple times, and it's been men. Now, men hearing this, I love men, I love my husbands. I I it this is not a you know men's bashing club. This is just the incidents have occurred that have been men. And so what happened was I was I was at a client and it's a long-term client. It is a client I've had for a long time, and I am I am part of a group of sessions, a series of sessions that they're doing. So I'm not the head facilitator, they don't really have a head facilitator, it's just they're bringing in this series of experts. And so I went in and was talking about crucial conversations, which I do many, many times. I love crucial conversations, which the irony that this has happened from my crucial conversations workshop is not lost on me. And I had a two-hour session, and anyone who spends 20 minutes with me knows that I talk about my family. My family, it I have so many life lessons from my family. I share mistakes I've made, mistakes my family has made, like it has made us better leaders. Now, I I'm going to say I share stories about my family, but not like I was teaching my son to tie a shoe. Like it's a scenario of my son at work and a mistake my son made earlier in his career, or a mistake I made as a mom, as a working woman, and so, or as a as a wife and as a leader. And so the examples I share are not like I was making a peanut butter sandwich. It's they're work-related stories. And so I go through the two-hour session, I have great feedback from the people in the room. They stayed after, and you know that you did a good job when you finish and people are connecting with you on LinkedIn and people are coming and asking for your advice afterwards. And so you feel really confident afterwards. And so I left that session. I felt really great. Had a final session with them a month later that has already since happened last week. And this gentleman, in the kindest way, we were gonna call this episode. My my book is you might be an asshole, but it might not be your fault. We were gonna call this episode you are an asshole, but I'll call him a gentleman for the story. This gentleman goes into my signature line on my email and gets on my Calendly unsolicited and signs up to have a virtual call with me, which is fine. I don't care. We get on the call. I I well time out, time out.

Rhonda Jolyean 6:27

Did you know? Did he title it anything, or did you know what it was gonna be about?

Dr. Katie 6:33

He had said, Oh my gosh, now I'm gonna have to. He had said essentially that he wanted to, so he did the session right after I did my session that day. And so he wanted to give me clarification on what he covered so we would not be duplicating. And so essentially it was that he wanted to just align on our sessions.

Rhonda Jolyean 7:03

Okay, so I'm just trying to get your headspace going into this meeting, the expectations.

Dr. Katie 7:10

Yeah, I just thought he was aligning us because I did know that he spent a whole afternoon in this group is a group of different individuals from different companies. So it's not the same company, it's a nonprofit that's bringing together leaders for this like leadership program that they've created, which is really cool. And so these leaders are from all over the country. They come to Kansas City for a short span of time, they do a couple sessions, then they go back, and then they come and then they go back. So I jump on the call thinking it is alignment. I had just had the most amazing morning session during crucial conversations with the Army Corps of Engineers. I was going in and doing a working genius session as soon as the call was done with a group of women that there's eight of them, and they run a counseling practice here in Kansas City. So, I mean, I was on Cloud Nine extrovert, galvanizer. I am feeling like a million bucks. And so I'm sitting in my car. People who have any calls with me know that my Jeep is my second office. I've got my laptop open. I'm sitting in the Jeep, getting ready for this next session. And I jump on and he's like, you know, hey, Katie, just wanted to spend a lot time with you. And I was like, sounds good. You know, I am preparing to go. And he was like, I just kind of wanted to, after you finished your session, you know, here's what I did in the afternoon. And really what I did was it was a two-hour session, and I just I did a very brief, very, very brief explanation. And then I had them working a role play and case study for the next two hours. Cool. Okay, check. Thanks for letting me know. And then he started and he kind of told me about his framework as leadership consultants, business partners, whatever. We all have our kind of own framework. Mine is leaders, quite frankly, I forget what his is, but you know, he's he's telling me his framework, and I'm like, and it's a framework on feedback. And I'm like, okay, cool. That's fantastic. Great. Thanks for thanks for sharing. And he was like, Do you have another minute? And I said, Yeah, absolutely. Again, I'm still feeling great. He was like, I just want to give you a couple tips.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Okay.

Dr. Katie 9:35

Couple tips. Okay, all right. And he was like, first of all, and I could tell at this point he's reading notes, and he said, first of all, you talk way too much about your family. You really need to give business examples. These are business professionals. Now, I don't always have my auto AI stay on to record, but thank goodness for this one, I did because I went back to check because I was a little son. So he essentially said that I lose credibility because I talk about my family too much.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

Okay.

Dr. Katie 10:09

Okay. I'm like, okay, now at this point, yes, I'm a little ticked off, but I'm like, okay, personal preference, right? This isn't really valuable feedback, personal preference. And then he said, and also I think you need to, you know, change your style a little bit. Like you need to do more. He was like, I know you do facilitation, so you talk a little bit and then you have them do table talk and you have them report out, and then you talk a little bit more, and then you, you know, have them do table talk and have discussions. He's like, you need to do more practice-based stuff. So he essentially wants me to do role plays and you know, case studies, like he said.

unknown 10:49

Okay.

Dr. Katie 10:50

And I was like, Okay, all right, thank you so much. And he was like, Do you have any questions? And I said, No. He goes, I just think it'll help you be better. At this point, I am like, Thank goodness we're not in person. Thank goodness we're not having coffee, because I would be over the table. And I said, Okay, thanks. And he was like, I just, I'm just trying to give you some feedback to help you be better. Do you have any questions? And I said, No. And he was like, Well, if I can, if I can help you in any other way, you know, let me know. And I said, Well, I appreciate the feedback in 26 years of doing this work. I've never heard that feedback before.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

So thank you.

Dr. Katie 11:31

And he was like, Okay, well, I'm happy to answer any more questions. I'm like, nope, I hung up, and I mean, I come on. I had to go back and read the transcripts three times to see if that's really what I heard.

Rhonda Jolyean 11:46

So

Consent And Relationship Before Critique

Rhonda Jolyean 11:46

I have several questions. Okay, so to clarify, this is a person that doesn't work, he's not an employee, he's just another facilitator. Correct. Okay. Also, did he say he said, Do you have another minute? I want to give you some tips. The nowhere in there was there, would you be open to some feedback? No, never once asked me that. Okay, so there wasn't consent to feedback, if you will.

Dr. Katie 12:20

Correct. Correct, nor any relationships. Quite frankly, we knew each other from LinkedIn, but we had never been in the same room together before that first session.

Rhonda Jolyean 12:30

Okay, yeah, because that's where my mind went. Besides, is this an employee who hired you? Which he wasn't, and I knew that he probably wasn't. It was, was there a consent on your end for feedback? And there wasn't. That was my knee-jerk reaction. And I mean, my stomach kind of dropped when you said it, which is what I'm assuming would have that would happen to me had he started doing that. I would have been on this high, and then there would have been like a stomach drop. Like, what? My body would have been just like, What?

Dr. Katie 13:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was kind of just like, did that just happen? I was just so stunned right by that. And you know, it's we all have different preferences, we all have different styles. We, I mean, different speakers speak differently. And so it have I spoken to groups in the past, and there's been people in the room that don't like me? Probably, yes, I absolutely. But for someone to it was just very, it was very odd and and unwelcomed.

Rhonda Jolyean 13:38

Well, again, he wasn't paying you, right? It wasn't somebody who had paid you or taken a survey and written it down, which again, survey means consent for feedback, right? Somebody who paid you and then said, Hey, I need to give you some feedback. And also I paid you a lot of money. I mean, there are just so many things that I'm thinking about that just didn't happen. And it just makes me feel icky and takes me back to a lot of times when I got unsolicited feedback. And that, you know, again, that goes back to why I've always said I don't like feedback as a gift. And that used to be, I think, a way of controlling us when I was in corporate America. And I hated it. I was like, no, that's not certain feedback. Like, yes, if there is, I understand I need to be open to some feedback from people who manage me, but even then it was in a one-on-one where it was, hey, we have to be open to this, this is a psychologically safe space, or from somebody who managed me, and then them saying, Can I give you some feedback? It wasn't ever just the out of the blue, you know. And these were people who it made sense to get feedback from, too. Yeah.

Dr. Katie 15:04

Yeah. Yeah. And I've had clients like I had a session very earlier on my company where I did a session with someone who didn't work for me. They were, they were a peer or friend, and the session didn't go well. And I knew halfway through the session it wasn't going well. Like I went to the client and said, How can I rectify this? This didn't go well. And the feedback was not easy to hear. But you know, especially when you've done it as long as I do, like you know, there's a point where, oh, okay, I'm not connecting or the message isn't landing or whatever. And for me, it wasn't that he was trying to make me better. It was that he was wanting me to be like him. He was trying to, he wanted me to make him comfortable. And that's what it really felt like.

Rhonda Jolyean 15:49

Well, that was another question was I think asking the intent behind the feedback. So again, thinking back to my personal situations, it's well, to make work, the work on the team better, to make you know the relationship between the manager and the employee better, etc. But what is the intent here? For me, the word that comes up is ego. Yeah. So and I'm an outsider. Yes, I'm your friend, so I have that bias, but that's what I'm seeing. And I feel like that's also what you're feeling. It just feels gross to me.

Preference Versus Evidence Based Feedback

Dr. Katie 16:34

I came home and told my husband, and he's like, now who? Who is this one? What in the world? You know, and it's and and so talk about ego. So I'm gonna throw my ego in here just a little bit because you know, I didn't know a lot about him other than social media presence. So I went and did the research. And like when you look at his experience and my experience and you put them next to each other, like it's vastly different. My I have my undergrad, my master's, and my doctorate all align with the work that I do. His does not. Now, there's gonna be people listening to this, and I acknowledge that just because I've read some books doesn't necessarily mean it. Like there's people who are way out of industry that are phenomenal leadership people. But I mean, you just even look at his work history and it just doesn't align for it. He doesn't come from an instructional design background. He's never held a job that he promotes on LinkedIn that is about instructional design or workshop design or facilitation design, anything like that. So it just ick, right? That the kids these days just say ick, it gave me the ick.

Rhonda Jolyean 17:49

Yeah, yes. And I will say though, like even if so, I talk about neuroaesthetics a lot, and that is something that I study and something that I try to practice, and yet I'm not, I wouldn't call myself an expert in. And if Dr. Anjon Chatterjee, who is an expert in it, said I mean, I would still expect this person to say, can I give you feedback? Even though that and I feel like he would, just having seen the interviews and he's wonderful, you know. So if you're listening out there, we would love to have you on our pocket. But yeah, so I I feel like even if you're the expert top of your field and I and I'm speaking about it, I would still expect a person to be kind enough. You know, we've had people, you know, the marks on talking about kindness and love. I would still expect somebody to be kind-hearted enough and human-centered enough to say, can I give you some feedback? Yeah.

Dr. Katie 18:57

Well, and I think, yeah, yeah. And I think people confuse like personal preferences with feedback, right? I prefer you to do it this way. I prefer you to communicate to me this way. I prefer, you know, you to be extroverted or you to to facilitate me in this way. Like that's my preference. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong. And I think I think that's where we as leaders get so confused. And in the world, we're not meant to make everyone comfortable. Like it's in the uncomfortable moments that we learn and grow and get better.

Rhonda Jolyean 19:33

100%. Yeah, so then that begs a question is I mean, and even asking you this, I feel ick, but you have a lot of experience, and maybe you know, I mean, is unsolicited feedback ever appropriate?

When Speaking Up Is Worth It

Dr. Katie 19:52

Yeah, you know, it's interesting because when I do my crucial conversations session, I talk about there was a time where I was in a nail salon. Sorry, not work-related. If anyone's uncomfortable, you can turn off the podcast. This is our podcast, I don't care. But I was in nail salon, and there were these two young women with their two young kids, and their kids were running around like crazy. They were they were three-year-olds doing what three-year-olds do, right? And the moms were there on a Sunday morning, and they were trying to have some quiet time to take care of their nails, and which meant they weren't keeping an eye on the kids. And and I turned to the moms and I say, because I could you can feel right in the salon, like people are disruptive, the staff is stressed out, things are happening. I turned to them and said, Oh my gosh, you know, I have kids of my own. This stage that your kids are in is such a challenging stage. I know it's not your intention. However, your children are being really disruptive. And I don't want anyone to have the impression that you're not fantastic mothers or that you're not taking care of your kids because I know exactly where you are. I've been in this stage. However, your children are being very disruptive. And they were like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I said, Again, please, I'm not judging you. I just don't want anyone to have the wrong impression of you. The women, you know, at first one was a little mortified and upset. The other one was very apologetic. And when I was getting ready to leave, one of the women said, Thank you so much for that. And I said, Look, I just, I just know how hard it is. And I know, you know, that you're doing such a great job. And I just didn't want you to walk out and people to be whispering behind your back. And, you know, but I did it in a very like in in crucial conversations. I we talk with start with the heart, right? Start with the why. What are you trying to achieve? And really it's the start with the heart for me in that moment with those two young women was to empathize with them because I've been in that chair and to also give them some kind and loving support. There's times I see people acting like fools, whether it be at work or at home or in Walmart or whatever, that I just walk past and shake my head because there's no start with a heart. Like, what's what's the end that I hope to get? And and I think that's a step that this person skipped for me.

Rhonda Jolyean 22:23

Oh, a hundred percent. I yes, in crucial conversations is difficult for a lot of us. It's very difficult for me. There's oftentimes where it's just easier to not, yeah, to, you know, if I see something that isn't harming, actually, I was just having this conversation at a happy hour last week. I didn't even this is an aha in real time. But, you know, having unless it's harming somebody or something, you know, someone else, I don't generally say anything. I, if somebody's doing something, you know, I it's easier to just not say something than it is to have that crucial conversation. Somebody, you know, in my friend group also brought up that as we get older, we also are realizing that, you know, we don't know what's always going on, you know, culturally, different cultures, different generations, etc. Like you just never know what's happening with people. Now, again, I don't think it gives this person an excuse. Again, I think I will constantly say, like, give that consent for feedback. But also it's that heart. I think if we I really like that leading with the heart. If you're leading with the heart, what is that intent? Where are you going with that conversation? I think if we continue to think about that as leaders, then that feedback is going to take a whole different shape.

Dr. Katie 23:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

Authenticity And The Karma Moment

Dr. Katie 24:00

it's interesting too because we we'll peek behind the curtain. We recorded Mark Schaefer's podcast right before this, and you talked about with Mark, like he is so genuine and so authentic and never feels schmarmy. And this guy, from the moment I walked in the room, it just felt very like, and and so the the follow-up was I had the session last week, and you know, he bops up to me and is like, you know, what's what's one great thing that that's happened to you this week? Dude, it's Monday. First of all, it's Monday, like, chill out. But second of all, like what? Like, it was just a very weird, inauthentic, non-connecting. And so I said, which is a true statement, like, it's been fantastic. I I'm I'm not going to dwell dwell on the bad stuff. So, quite frankly, everything in my life is wonderful right now. Because it genuinely is. Like, that's not a BS answer. Like, my life, yes, I can get petty. There's small little things, but really, my life is pretty phenomenal, other than I have this dude that I never want to see again in my life. But um other than that, my life's great.

Rhonda Jolyean 25:14

Yeah. And honestly, you know, this is such a unique situation for you. We talk about a lot of stressors as entrepreneurs, and this is one that really I know you usually don't have things affect you. And not that this really did, but you were like, it was just so weird, you know, and then it's not bringing you down. You've totally had so many good things, but we did think it was important to talk about on the podcast because so many, well, first of all, because we disagreed about feedback as a gift, but also because so many of us let, you know, one person's opinion or that feedback drag us down so much. And I think it's important that we think about that intent, that heart that people have behind it too, and remember our true intent so that we can continue to move forward and not let that drag us down.

Dr. Katie 26:15

Yeah, you're so right. And it it, you know, he has been living rent-free for a couple of weeks in my head because I was so angry and so offended and so grossed out about it. But this is the last I'm gonna talk about it. I've removed him from my LinkedIn. I have, you know, just I'm I'm dumping it. But it was just so disappointing. I think it's more that I don't my client, to my knowledge, doesn't know about the call. Now, I have scheduled a follow-up call to give them feedback to let them know about the call and to let them know that if he returns next year as a facilitator, I will not be returning next year as a facilitator. Um, and it's not because I don't love them, I do, but I don't want to be associated with his type of work and his behaviors. And so I will give them that feedback and then I will see what they do with it.

A Story That Proves The Point

Dr. Katie 27:08

The other fun thing about the last session is the universe gives you exactly what it's supposed to, right? So I was wrapping up on the crucial conversations, and I was able to talk about the you know difference between feedback and preference and and how we because it just aligned gorgeously. It's like the universe aligned it beautifully, and this room is set up kind of in an almost L shape kind of thing, and he was sitting in the back of the room, and this young woman who was sitting in front of him said, This is a little off topic, but as a woman, what do you do when a man like it was like I fed her the question and I mean, my I just got giddy. I was like, Well, thank you, universe. Thank you, uh, you know, karma bus being right here. And I said, you know, I used to say feedback is a gift, and I have since learned in the last three weeks that feedback is not a gift from everyone because, you know, and I just I unloaded all of the anger, and I mean, I was making eye contact at her, but I could see him behind, and I was just like, you know what? Some people just don't know what the shit they're talking about, and you just got to accept that. I said, I've had people that are wholly less qualified than me want to give me feedback, and there's a point where you have to just be like, thank you. Yeah. And I just skipped out of the room. But the best part is when I finished that session, I was literally in a hurry to get to my next session. I had two people up there to talk to me. And then I had one man, young man, who said, It looks like you're in a hurry. And I said, I am, I'm so sorry. Can we schedule a call? And he said, Can I walk you to your car? And I said, Absolutely. And as we're walking to the car, he said, This makes me so happy. He said, The story you shared about your son working at the casino and the mistakes he made, that's me right now. And so, can you help me understand the feedback you gave to your son that helped that relationship? So the irony that it the bow that it was tied with was the story of my son resonated with the person in the room, which is why I tell the story to this gentleman spending seven minutes walking me to my car because it's a very big peril, walking me to my car. So, I mean, it was just the universe saying, and it's done.

Rhonda Jolyean 29:42

Yes. And you're as you knew in the first place, you're on the right path, and you knew what you were doing all along, as we knew, and this is touching people's hearts and minds. So yeah, yeah, uh, I love that. If someone's listening, well, no, I mean, I think it's again the universe, you know, perhaps this happened so that somebody in our audience is relating because it's happening to them. Maybe it's unfortunately constantly happening to them that they have a CEO or a manager who is constantly giving out opinions and not intentional feedback or growth feedback, if you will. So, what would what's some advice that you could give to them? What's some tactics that we could give to them today that they could use to move forward with heart and intent?

Dr. Katie 30:40

Yeah,

Practical Filters For Giving Feedback

Dr. Katie 30:40

I think there's two things. I think people before giving feedback, there's a couple of questions. Like if I'm giving feedback, the first thing is am I helping the person succeed or am I trying to make them more like me? Is this about results or my comfort? Did they ask for my opinion? Sometimes it's appropriate when it's about safety or ethics or professionalism or harassment, but often it doesn't, not necessary. And then do I have enough of a relationship with this person? That relationship, that trust, that context really, really, really matters.

Rhonda Jolyean 31:15

Yes.

Dr. Katie 31:16

Um, but I will say if you're receiving the feedback, there's a couple things. One is give yourself grace. Because even if it is feedback that's hard to hear, there may be some context of truth in there. Like I did spend some time. Okay, did I miss a cue? Did I miss something? Is there something I can learn? Is there, is there something I can grow from this? What I learned was feedback is not always a gift. So there was something. So one is you know, giving yourself some grace, really understanding that, paying attention to context. He doesn't know my business, he doesn't know my story, he doesn't, he hasn't been in the room with me, he doesn't see the stories, the relationships, the connections. The way I facilitate is from the heart, it's not from a textbook. And so I facilitate from a very vulnerable spot. I facilitate from a spot where I've I've had people come up to me afterwards crying and saying, I needed to hear that today because of this, that, and whatever. And so that's how I facilitate. So I'm not a fit for every client, I'm not a fit for everyone, and I know that about myself, right? And so taking that in and really, is there is there evidence of what they're talking about? It it does it make sense. And and at that point, then you just you flush it. And that's the that's the point where I'm at now is I flush it, you know. I've I've shared the story, I've only shared his name with the very closest of closest people. But now I I hope he's successful, I hope he resonates with the people he resonates with. I also hope that he realizes that, you know, his preference isn't everybody's, and you know, maybe he should just stick to the stuff he knows.

Rhonda Jolyean 33:10

Yeah, and that leading with the heart is better than thinking about that that preference. I think if we all led more with that heart and feedback, first of all, we probably wouldn't give as much feedback and opinions. And second of all, the world would just be so much better.

Dr. Katie 33:33

Yeah, yeah, it is. I mean, it really is. When we build relationships, when we truly care about people, I mean, I not all the time it's gotten better because I've grown and gotten better. But I mean, I can tell you times that I've gotten really harsh feedback in the past, but it I needed it. Like I needed it to grow and to get better. And I I don't want people to stop giving me feedback, but you just gotta do it in a way that is caring and loving, and and there's some evidence to it, right? Were you yes, were you not in the same room I was in?

Rhonda Jolyean 34:07

Yes, exactly. Oh well, I'm sorry and yet glad that happened to you. It's like a bittersweet experience. I have learned from it, I've learned new uh vocabulary to put around feedback, and it's just only gonna help me. And we also hopefully have helped some audience members who are going through this on either side, you know, have maybe had backlash to the feedback they give, gave, or have had some feedback experiences and who hasn't, right? Right. That has been bad and they need some help gaining some evidence, figuring out if it was with heart or if it was just about preference, etc.

Dr. Katie 35:00

So yeah, yeah. Well, and it's you know, it's I I learned early in my career, like I was so proud to be brutally honest, and I realized, oh, at some point you don't have to be brutal, you can just be honest. And then there's a point where you don't just be honest, you be kind, right? And so we learn and we grow. You know, this gentleman is quite a bit many years older than me. So maybe should have learned this by now, but that's okay. Um, you're never you're never too old to learn new tricks.

Rhonda Jolyean 35:30

Yep. Growth mindset.

Dr. Katie 35:32

Yep, yep. Well, thank you for letting me get that off my chest and sharing it. And

Listener Stories And Closing Requests

Dr. Katie 35:38

thank you everyone for listening. I would love to hear from other people, right? Has this happened? Have they, which side were they on? Again, we don't want to hear names, we don't want to get petty, but we do like this happens, and so we would love to hear from people if it's happened to them and and the results of it.

Rhonda Jolyean 35:58

Yeah, let us know because we would love to share your story or even just help you give you some advice. And as always, we'll read your messages. You can comment on the reviews on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. I have had people ask me lately if we're on Apple Podcasts, because we do share a lot about Spotify. But yes, we're on anywhere that you can stream podcasts. And then if you go ahead and rate us, I won't ask that you rate us five stars, but you could if you wanted to. But rating really helps people to discover our podcast. And we are just really appreciative of that. And that's where you can leave us any feedback or comments. You can also comment on either of our LinkedIn profiles, you can message us, you can email us. We have our emails in the descriptions as well. And we just can't thank you enough for being our audience and being with us through ups and downs of our professional careers as well.

Dr. Katie 37:05

Yeah, yeah, we appreciate it. And we have had some really fun. I don't know if we'd mention it, but Bavaria, Munich has downloaded and Berlin, we got a couple Europeans, Green Valley, Arizona, Santa Barbara, California. So it's so fun that we have listeners all over the world. And we're we truly are so thankful for everyone. And and we would love for you to continue to to share the podcast. If this resonates with you, please share this podcast with someone because we're we want this to really be an opportunity for people to learn and grow. And and we tease it. We're letting you in on our coffee chats. This is legitimately one of our coffee chats. Yes. For sure. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you everyone for listening and we'll talk to you next time on the path to leadership. Bye, everyone. Bye.