Stop Believing The Story In Your Head

Your brain is a world-class storyteller, and under stress it becomes a sloppy fact-checker. We’re laying the foundation for our new series on the stories we tell ourselves, the assumptions we default to, and the quiet way those internal narratives shape leadership decisions, workplace relationships, and even our creativity.

We talk through moments almost everyone recognizes: rereading an email to guess tone, assuming someone’s silence means disapproval, or building a worst-case scenario before a hard conversation even happens. Using Brené Brown’s “the story I’m making up is” framework, we unpack why the brain fills gaps for certainty and safety, how negativity bias ramps up in survival mode, and why curiosity can vanish when fear takes over. We also share personal examples of how family patterns, early mentors, and old labels can echo into adult work life, sometimes pushing us to overprotect, overreact, or shrink ourselves.

From a practical leadership coaching lens, we offer simple tools you can use immediately: pause before reacting, name what you know versus what you’re assuming, ask what else could be true, and check whether you’re reacting to facts or fear. We also connect this to inclusive leadership and psychological safety, reminding ourselves that different processing styles, neurodiversity needs, and life stressors can change how people show up at work. If you want better communication, fewer avoidable conflicts, and a steadier leadership presence, this conversation gives you a clear starting point.

Subscribe, share the show with someone who overthinks like we do, and leave a review so more leaders can find the series. What’s the most common story you catch yourself repeating?

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Transcript

Welcome And Series Teaser

Dr. Katie 0:00

Hi everyone, welcome back to the Patsy Leadership. I'm Dr. Katie and I'm Rhonda Jolene. We're so thrilled to have you. Welcome everyone. Happy June. When this comes out, it's gonna be June. We're knocking on the door.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:15

It is summertime. I'm ready for it and ready for positive, hopefully positive weather and positive attitudes and positive things coming into our lives.

Dr. Katie 0:28

I hear you. Yeah, I am ready for some sunshine and some warmth and a naked jeep. Like I just want to take the doors off. I want to take the top off. I want to feel the wind in my hair. I just, it is almost naked Jeep season, and that is the best season for me.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:45

That was funny.

Dr. Katie 0:50

So we have been talking about this and teasing this, and it's it's finally here. Our series on the stories we tell ourselves.

Rhonda Jolyean 1:00

It is a deep one, and we are gonna have a full series. I think we've done shorter series before, but this one is going to be deep. It's gonna have four episodes. I'm gonna let you tease those here in a little bit. And I'm looking forward to these conversations. They might be tough at spots, but this is something that a lot of listeners have talked about. I know that I've talked about these types of things in leadership conversations, in therapy, which I can give examples of that later on. And these are things that I think most of us don't think about a lot. But if you are a person who identifies as female, if you are a person who lives in the Midwest, a lot of intersectional diversity, what do I want to say, aspects of certain people, you will be able to relate to these conversations because if you think about others a lot and what other people are thinking, or conversations that you've had, or things your mom told you when you were younger, these series are for you. So I'm looking forward to unpacking this a little bit.

Dr. Katie 2:18

Yeah, I am too. And I will say I find myself asking my that question, you know, what story are you telling yourself? I literally just did a session yesterday on having difficult conversations. And so I challenge leaders with this all the time. When I do individual coaching, I'm challenging them to think about this all the time. So I'm really excited for the series. And so today we're gonna start kind of laying out what is the stories we tell ourselves and where does that where does that feel like and what does that look like and all those kind of things. And then episode two, we're gonna do where these stories come from. So looking at some internal roots of our stories, very reflective episode, but we do want to disclaim like 80 times throughout every episode. Like, we are not psychologists, we're not psychiatrists, but we are just speaking from our experience and from our research and from our background. And so we do encourage people

Why Stories Feel Like Facts

Dr. Katie 3:20

because sometimes the stories we tell ourselves are rooted in some very hard things. And sometimes they're not hard, but you still need professional help to uncover them. When I did HR, I loved, loved, love, loved having an employee assistance program. I know a bunch of companies out there have them. I also, I know you talk about your therapist. I love my therapist. I think it is a very healthy world where we rely on professionals to have these conversations.

unknown 3:48

Yep.

Rhonda Jolyean 3:49

We encourage people to reach out through their employee assistant program, or if you are lucky enough to have a corporate counselor, reach out to Katie and I and we can help you find resources. But we are definitely here just to talk from an experiential and theoretical perspective. And, you know, I think these are really good conversations to have as we have all of the information coming at us constantly. And I don't know about you, but oftentimes I have to think is this a story I'm telling myself or is it a fact? Because of all of the information, it's so hard to distinguish. And that doesn't mean that we're failures, it doesn't mean that we're any less human beings. These are just, I think, the human experience. And we're going to tie it to how we can become better leaders, how we can have better teams, and how we can help with personal development, and then how we can begin to rewrite these stories. And I'm really looking forward to that because God knows I need help with that as well.

Dr. Katie 5:00

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You nailed it. So episode three will be the stories leaders tell themselves about their teams. So it's really the external leadership lens. And then episode four is rewriting those stories. How do we challenge and change the narratives? And how do we remind ourselves that there's different parts to the stories? So we'll we'll really be working through that. And I'm excited as we're working through this. I know you've been having conversations with people about this. Like I said, I have conversations with people all the time. So I can't wait to hear people share with us about their June journey with us on uh exploring their exploring their their stories. Yeah. Heavy topic for summer, but we're we welcome it. Right, right. Yeah. It'll be it'll be great. And the sun won't be shining. So after we do some reflection, or maybe you're listening to it while you're walking in the sun. That would be that would be ideal. But so let's jump in because I think as we were starting this episode, we really were in the planning of it all. We've we've been teasing this, you know, our brain creates stories, they assumptions really shape our emotions and behaviors. And and so really the first step of this is for us to really understand that. And as as we were doing our prep, you know, thinking about the the statements that I think ring true for all of us, right? Is you know, have you ever convinced yourself that someone was upset with you only to find out that they were really busy? Have you ever replayed an

The Brain’s Gap-Filling Habit

Dr. Katie 6:36

email 15 times trying to figure out what someone meant, trying to read tone or inflection or the rest of the story, right? Have you ever created an entire future disaster scenario in your head before a conversation even happens? Guilty. Yeah, I just I chuckle at that. It's not really funny. But my son, when he was younger, like if I would not answer the phone immediately, it was like you are in a ditch, and it's like, no, son, I am working, like relax. But the stories, the panic, everything he told himself. So we're all telling ourselves stories. The problem is sometimes we start believing those stories as fact, and that's where we get the challenges that we're gonna talk about.

Rhonda Jolyean 7:20

Yeah, and then those stories affect our confidence and our relationships, and then ultimately that can affect our related our leadership and our creativity. So we will be working on that because that's what we're here to do.

Dr. Katie 7:34

Yeah, yeah. So we're gonna really start with Brene Brown's framework. We love Brene Brown. I mean, she has the framework around the story I'm making up is. And we've talked about this in previous episodes. She talks about this, you know, our brain fills the gaps, it's made to keep us alive, not happy. And so when there are those gaps, our our brains will fill it in because they crave certainty and safety. And really the assumptions are often just an emotional protection that really these stories are built from fear or insecurity, past experiences, rejection, shame, and uncertainty. So sometimes these stories are just automatic. Yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean 8:22

And I think that I love when we I've been saying a lot to myself, the story that I've been telling myself lately is that our brain is here to help us survive and not thrive. And so I've been trying to catch myself lately knowing that. And so knowing that the story that I'm telling myself is probably not true. And it's based on negativity bias. So the words that we tell ourselves affect, you know, us a lot. And, you know, some of the leadership examples that I know you and I have talked about is like that my employee doesn't care, my boss looked at me the wrong way. So are they gonna fire me? I was having coffee with a friend today, and they are a boss of a lot of people. And they were telling me that they constantly have people scared to speak up in meetings, afraid of getting fired. And my friend said, Where did you get that? Like, did somebody ever tell you that? But the, you know, it is a cultural story that they have, you know, who knows where it came from. And all of these things in our nervous system, you know, going back to that survival mode, it just increases those negative assumptions with that negativity bias. And when we have so much of the negativity and all of the survival mechanisms, the stress that we have, it just keeps us in a state of dysregulation. And then that narrows our perspective. We tend to then think, in the example of my friend and their team, well, yeah, I am gonna get fired. It's not, oh, my boss could be looking at me in a way because they're tired or they're thinking, ooh, that person could be prime for a promotion or a great role. You know, we always lean towards that negativity bias. And we've discussed before that creativity and curiosity absolutely disappear when fear takes over. That is the last thing our brain wants for us. And so we're not going to want to move ahead, and then other people aren't going to see our great ideas, our great work when we are so narrowly focused on just surviving. And um, that's makes me really sad. But we do this constantly as human beings.

Dr. Katie 10:47

Yeah. And we like you mentioned, we don't always know we are doing it because it just happens. And and stress can really amplify that as well, which really makes it even harder when we're stressed to, you know, have an open mind and to be reasonable and to be there. And I know we've talked off camera and when we're not recording about stories we've told ourselves, and I know that I have so many of them where it could it damaged me, it damaged relationships. You know, I just a couple I think of almost immediately. The first one was when I was really young in my career. I grew up in a family that was not very kind to each other. I mean, forget being nice, like just not kind to each other. And

How Old Wounds Shape Work

Dr. Katie 11:39

it was a constant competition and it was hurtful. I mean, just so many things. My therapist is is a saint, but that impacted me at work. And so I, whenever people were whispering, I thought it was about me. Whenever there was closed doors, I always thought I was in trouble. I thought I was gonna get yelled at because that's what I was just used to in life. And I had a boss tell me, like, look, I don't know where you're coming from or what you're thinking, but the world does not revolve around you. Everything is not about you. He actually didn't say it in that nice of a way, right? But I think about him all the time now and saying that, and it kind of sholts me a little bit and makes me think, okay, it's not about me, it's not about me. Sometimes it is about me, and I've convinced myself it's not. Uh, that's a whole nother self-awareness piece. But I mean, it really damaged. Like I was so I didn't feel safe and I didn't feel seen and I didn't feel protected. And so the stories I kept telling myself was, you know, protect yourself, get out before they get you, you know, uh hit them first. Like in my family, they wouldn't just take you out the knees, like they would just hit you right in the chest and just cold knockout. And so I was angry at the beginning of my career. And I was like, I'm brutally honest, I'm not gonna say anything behind your back, I won't say to your face. I had to learn you could be kind and not be brutal.

Rhonda Jolyean 13:15

Uh yeah.

Dr. Katie 13:17

But I mean, the stories from my from my history, I just kept telling myself, you gotta protect yourself, you gotta attack first, you gotta you gotta be the one. You can't let them come after you. And it quite frankly, it hurt me earlier in my career. And there's some relationships that I don't know can ever be repaired. Wow.

Rhonda Jolyean 13:35

And that's so just shocking to me to hear as someone who knows you later in your life, as that is completely opposite of what I know, which is great because you've unlearned that. However, I know you still have a little tiny voice in the back of your head because and we'll talk about this later on in the series. We can rewrite those stories, they never truly go away. Yeah, and so the voices are stor. I tend to think of the stories as voices more, just that's easier. I I think my whole life is like the movie, oh shoot, it's the Disney movie or the Pixar movie where all the characters are the emotions inside, inside out. Yes, that's kind of how I visualize my brain. And and speaking of that, one of my stories and one of my characters in my head, and God lover, and I know she's probably listening. Hi, mom, but a lot of our, and yes, you were an amazing mom, mom, and a lot of our stories come from our parents. And my mother wanted to protect me. She did the best that she could with what she had at the time. And she saw me change my mind a lot when I was younger and be interested in lots of different things, just like my dad was. He was interested in so many different things. And to her, that's not how she was raised. So for her, that was a scary thing because she thought that I was never going to find something that I loved or that I would be truly happy. So she then turned to that negative perspective and said, You're so wishy-washy, just like your dad. And that, and I still get chills throughout my body, and I can feel it in certain places in my body because for such a long time in my career, I would take that with me and think, if I don't stick with one thing, I'm gonna be looked at as wishy-washy, and that is a bad thing. And I really tell this because I know a lot of people, I'm not, I don't have ADHD. I'm not diagnosed as neurodivergent, but I know so many people listening are, and they have been told for so long in their lives that having curiosities or switching from one thing to another is such a bad thing. When in reality, it makes people so much more interesting. We need people to be generalists to then learn. They learn so quickly. We need people to connect pieces and connect ideas to ideas. And I learned in my career from some really great leaders that I'm the one that comes up and generates ideas so much quicker because I have been interested in so many different things. So then when I started getting rewarded for that, I realized, oh, this isn't a bad thing. And I luckily have a partner in life who really encourages me to make my identity someone who prides herself on being interested in so many different things. And I hence why I have a podcast and two different businesses and all these things, you know. So I that is one of my stories that I continue to carry with me, you know. And it's I I mean, we could each go on for hours and hours about these things, but hopefully people listening can connect and start to think of their own stories as we continue on with this series as well.

Dr. Katie 17:12

Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. And, you know, you telling that story about your mom, I mean, makes me think about my mentor because we I've shared the story about what he said about public speaking the very first time I spoke. And he is the kindest, loveliest. And I've not had the opportunity to meet your mom, but I know she is so fantastic. And I know when I mentioned the story about Dan, it just he's like, oh, that wasn't what that that wasn't it. That wasn't what I was trying to say. And it's like, I get it, I get it, I get it. So sometimes even these stories come from people that have the best of intentions and the biggest of hearts, and they love and care for us so much. And it's really, you know, we're never gonna be perfect. It's all about awareness and just paying attention to those stories are so important.

Rhonda Jolyean 18:00

Yeah, it's really that awareness piece is key. And sometimes you can't get to it by yourself. You have to really utilize that professional help or friends and family who might say, Where's that story coming from? You know, you might not be able to see it. And so really leaning on others around you and external help is vital to digging out and putting words to it because once you're able to verbalize it, it'll be easier to catch those stories. And we'll talk about that here in a little bit.

Dr. Katie 18:34

Yeah, yeah. I agree, I agree. And it knowing this and doing this work matters more than we could ever think. Like it has leadership impact, it has relationship impact. It can really do some damage if we don't pay attention to it. And I'm sure as people are listening to this, they can really think about times where that happened, where maybe we assume someone is is being quiet, like we talked about at the beginning, that they disagree with us or don't like us or think it's a bad idea. And maybe

Leadership Costs Of Assumptions

Dr. Katie 19:09

they're introverts, maybe they're internal processing, maybe something crazy happened on the way to work that they didn't share with anyone. When I and we'll really go deep into this in the third session of the podcast, but you know, the the things that go on at people's homes that we have no clue what's going on, whether they're a caregiver, whether they're having financial problems, relationship struggles, there's just a lot of stuff going on. And when we make assumptions about people or feedback someone gives us, or someone's bad mood, so often, probably conservatively seven times a week in our house, someone will say, It's not about me, right? Their bad mood, their tone, it's not about me. It's they've got something going on, but it's that out loud reminder that we have to do that's like, don't internalize it, don't make it worse, don't think it's something it's not, because it happens so so much. And in leadership, sometimes when we don't see people or we don't have time to connect, we think that people just don't care or they're not supportive or they don't want us to be successful. And and that's not true either, but it can get in the way so easily.

Rhonda Jolyean 20:31

Yeah, and you I say to myself a lot, I can't control their emotions, I can only control mine. And in today's world, I'll go back to this just because I have so many people in my life who are like this, with the research and knowledge about people who are neurodiverse. We don't, everybody acts differently. You know, I've had to learn that there are people in my life who, when they are on their phones, they have to have that stimulation to be able to pay attention to me. Now, in the workplace, if there, if there's rules and there's a culture, and we can talk about this later on then in the series, if there's a set culture where that doesn't work, then maybe provide engagement toys on tables. These are things that we have to think about to have an inclusive culture. There are people in my life who they have to, they can't look at you straight in the face, in your eyes. They have to be petting maybe an emotional support dog, et cetera. So having these vulnerable conversations is very important because making the assumption will get you nowhere. It's just going to narrow that perspective that we spoke about. And that's not a growth mindset at all. That is a narrow mindset. And we want to continuously say, how can I have this growth mindset? How can I have these open conversations? And in the workplace, how can I make this more of a psychologically safe? Safe environment for all.

Dr. Katie 22:01

Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. And it's it's interesting because I just recently I have a very, very good friend, and she is highly successful, highly intelligent. Like, um, if you were to ask people to define her, it is just like she is she is a rock star. Like she is a phenomenal leader, phenomenal woman, like just everything you could think. And it it hurts my heart every time we have conversation that she's struggling because it's like, why don't you see yourself the way the universe sees you? And it's a lot of it comes from just historical stuff, but a lot of it is the voice in her head is telling her, like, he promised one thing and he did something else. He, you know, people in the office aren't doing this because they of that. And it's this constant back and forth of, and then when I challenge her and say, don't run away from it, go have the conversation. Inevitably, five minutes after she has a conversation, it's like, it went great. It was a misunderstanding, all is fantastic. And it's like, God, how many workplace conflicts, how many relationship conflicts, how many stories that we're telling ourselves really just need to be clarified? And I think it happens so often.

unknown 23:22

Yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean 23:23

Well, that's don't get me started on the advent of email. I mean, come on, like that's a whole I that I think has made workplaces just so much more complicated. But I mean, there are ways though that we can start catching these stories. So, how do we start to do that?

Dr. Katie 23:42

Yeah, well, there's a couple practical tools. And tool one is pause before reacting. We've talked about this before when it comes to emotional intelligence, and it's truly asking the question, you know, what facts do I actually know and what assumptions am I making? And so it's that emotional awareness, that emotional intelligence that take that deep breath, process it, let your brain catch up with what you're what you've heard before you start reacting, before

Practical Tools To Catch The Story

Dr. Katie 24:14

you start behaving. It allows you to put things things in perspective. Yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean 24:20

I think going back to even words that we've used before in leadership and innovation or putting it in corporate terms, thinking about being curious is such a huge just how can I be more curious about this? Hopefully that opens it up for a lot of other people. And also from if you just think about it from a bodily nervous system perspective, every time, not every time, I'm trying to get better. Let's be vulnerable. I'm trying to get better at this, but when I am in my rumination of what did that person mean by that, or a lot of the times it's with my partner, it's with my husband because I'm around him a lot. And I have some trauma in my life about partnerships and trust and things like that. And I the people you spend the most time with are the easiest to make up stories about, and we'll talk about that with teams. And since I work from home and I have a business with him, that is easy for me to do. And I have to say, if I can just pause, is this something he has actually said? Is this something my coworker has actually said, or is this me making up a story? And it's as easy as taking a few breaths, just like we would to regulate our nervous system, just slowing down. Maybe, you know, it's kind of like when we have to take literally take a break. So, whereas if you needed a break from your desk, you would go for a walk, I go for a walk, get up, stretch your legs, and then it might not be that big of a deal. One thing that has really drastically changed my life in the past six months, I tend to be a super empathetic person. And I know a lot of people tend to be right now. Yeah. Because again, there's just so much information and it's so easy to just focus. I used to do this thing wherein if something was bad in life or I was sad, then I would think about other sad things to like, I don't know, pile it on. It's crazy. It was crazy. And I and I want to preface that with saying I'm not calling I'm just saying that act was crazy of mine. I'm not judging anybody else that does that. But I will say to myself, what am I carrying that is not mine to carry? And that question to me helps me breathe and helps me think about it in a way that is also okay. I may be taking on someone else's story, and we're going to talk about borrowed stories. I might be taking on someone else's emotion. I might be taking on a headline that I saw on social media or something my mom said, or, you know, someone else's bad day. And I think that that's really important because it helps me also remember that I'm not the only one. Right. So it's not all about me. So hopefully that question maybe helps people, and maybe it doesn't. Maybe you need to come up with your own question. Again, please reach out to a professional. Yeah. But this is the question that helps me. So I just wanted to share that as well.

Dr. Katie 28:00

Yeah, I like that. And it makes me think of some other questions too that can be helpful, which is, you know, that what else could be true? Like what are alternatives to the stories? Asking yourself, am I reacting to facts or fear? And did I clarify or did I assume? And so often in in moments, whether we're stressed or tired, or quite frankly, maybe we don't have a really strong relationship with that person. Maybe there's some history, things like that. And so asking those questions helps us slow down and and quite frankly, catch up with everything to try to bring some reality to the situation.

Rhonda Jolyean 28:41

And just at the end of the day, our brains are silly and they were not built for all this information and all of this complexity. And so we just have to take a beat and give them a break and then reassess the situation.

Dr. Katie 29:02

Yeah, yeah. I think you're so right. And you know, so much of our growth is rooted in self-awareness. If we don't understand the stories driving our behaviors, those stories start driving our leadership, our relationships, everything else. So it's so important for us to understand who we are, where we came from, what's happening to really get us to that next step. So well, and we love we love homework in this series series. We're gonna ask you to do a lot of reflection. And so to start, the reflection questions for this episode what story do you tell yourself most often? A lot of times we have those repetitive stories that we're telling ourselves, or even a repetitive theme that we're telling ourselves. What assumptions do we default to under stress? Again, the stories

Reflection Questions And Next Steps

Dr. Katie 30:04

show up most often when we have some type of stress going on. What relationship or situations might need clarification instead of assumptions? So maybe it's a difficult relationship or situation. We've got to really make sure we are paying attention. I have a two peers that I'm coaching separately, and I'm constantly having to coach them to really pay attention to get clarity, to not make assumptions about each other because there is this friction that I just want to lock them in a room. I want them to be brother and sister and put them in a one of those giant t-shirts in a locked room and say you can't leave until you figure it out. So we're constantly telling each other, telling stories about each other that aren't true. And then what would change if you approach situations with curiosity instead of certainty? I like that one. Yeah, yeah. Those are going to be fun. And like we said at the very beginning, episode two, we're really going to start talking about where these stories start to come from, what might be the origin of them, some internal roots, and why what themes might we see be seeing that might be be coming back. Um, so we're gonna encourage you to be super reflective in that one.

Rhonda Jolyean 31:32

Yeah, and I think for the second series, if people want to think about, I'm looking at it as the personal development. So internally, where do I get my stories? So you can think about it of we're gonna not unpack those stories, but just unpack where stories come from, have you think about it from a personal perspective, because then we're gonna move on to culture and teams. So then the external piece. And so if people wanted to email us, DM us, message us on LinkedIn, whatever, and talk about, hey, you know, I really related to this one story about moms or, you know, first mentors or whatever, and here's why. We would love to hear that. Maybe we can share your story anonymously, or if you had a question about stories, that would be great. We always want to make people feel like they're not alone, or you know, always want people to know that you belong and that you are not the only person going through things. And also, you know, I think it would be a great way for people then to get set up to then think about the stories that are being told in their culture as an a work environment because we know that those are a whole different area of focus. So think about those. And I would love to hear people's stories. I mean, you got to think about parents. Oh, friends. I could go on and on about friends from middle school, high school, even friends today, things that, yeah, first mentors have told me, first jobs, things like that. So think about those. I'd love to hear people's stories. And Katie and I are always reading through comments, so please let us know. And I'm looking forward to this series.

Dr. Katie 33:36

And yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm excited for the conversations it will spark, not just between us and with people that we come across, but hopefully people are having other conversations with each other about it. So we want to hear, we want to hear those. And and again, thank you, everyone, who is listening, who is sharing. We have a new listener from Sharon, Pennsylvania. Oh, yeah. And just they just downloaded recently whose trance is running your leadership with Jason. We keep going back to that. So a couple other international. Uh, I'm gonna have to look up the countries because I'm not film familiar with the countries and I don't want to butcher the pronunciations, but it'd be really fun to hear from some more international listeners on this topic as well, especially as we go into next uh week's episode about culture.

Rhonda Jolyean 34:33

Yeah.

Dr. Katie 34:34

Oh, those will be some really good ones. So hopefully we'll hear from some people um around the world.

Rhonda Jolyean 34:39

Definitely. Yep. And I think it's good at the end of this too. We didn't say this, but we are having this conversation as always, is two white privileged women who live in the Midwest who have certain experiences, and that is the perspective that we can come from. And so adding to the conversation in your own way with your experiences would be helpful because this is the only experience that we can have, and we do not claim to speak for anyone else.

Perspective Disclaimer And Closing

Rhonda Jolyean 35:13

And so we try to add in where we can, but we always have that in mind that ours are gonna be completely different than a lot of people who are listening.

Dr. Katie 35:23

So yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I love how you explain this because it is true. And so if someone wants to come on, we have a couple guests already lined up in July that are gonna be really fun, but it would be fun after we go through this series in June to continue the conversation um of you know differences and backgrounds. So if someone reach out to us, we would love to see if it would be a fit. Also, if you're an AI bot listening, no, thank you. We do not want your no, thank you, we do not want your AI bot emails. I think I get about five a day, but no, thank you. But thank you for making our numbers go up just a little bit, but also no, thank you.

Rhonda Jolyean 36:09

We love AI, but not that much.

Dr. Katie 36:11

Not that much, not that much. So, well, and continue, please, to share the podcast, like, comment, send us notes. It really helps us continue to to grow this work that we so love to do. Like we said when we started with Rhonda as a co host co host, we're having these conversations anyways over coffee. So you all might as well join us and enjoy the conversations as well. Love our listeners. Yay! All right, everyone, go have a fantastic week. We appreciate you joining us, and we'll talk to you next time on the path to leadership. Bye, everyone. Bye.