Stop Faking It And Start Learning It

You can be talented, prepared, and respected and still hear that inner voice whisper, “Do I belong here?” We get real about imposter syndrome in leadership, why it spikes during busy seasons and big transitions, and how it can distort the way we speak up, set boundaries, and show up for our teams.

We unpack why “fake it till you make it” often backfires for leaders who care about authenticity, and we offer a better frame: learn it while you earn it. Drawing on neuroscience and lived experience, we talk about negativity bias, how the brain overestimates threats, and why uncertainty can feel like danger. We also look at perfectionism as a common signal, especially for high achievers, and why imposter feelings are not the same thing as incompetence.

Comparison is a major accelerant, and social media makes it constant. We explore how other people’s wins can land in our nervous system like loss, why imposter syndrome can feel lonelier the higher you climb, and what leaders can do to change the culture. That includes psychological safety, honest feedback loops, and the kind of grounded vulnerability that builds trust and boosts engagement. You’ll also hear a powerful reminder to stop shrinking: sometimes your voice is inconvenient, and it still needs to be heard.

If this resonates, share it with a leader who needs it, then subscribe, rate, and review the show so more people can find these conversations. What’s one moment when imposter syndrome shows up for you most?

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Transcript

Busy Seasons And Real Boundaries

Dr. Katie 0:00

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Pat to Leadership. I'm Dr. Katie.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:04

And I'm Rhonda Jolene.

Dr. Katie 0:05

And we are so thrilled to have you with us. How's everything going, Rhonda?

Rhonda Jolyean 0:12

I'm good. We were just talking before we jumped on here and busy season as usual. And I don't know about you, but it can feel not only overwhelming, but you're kind of out of your element sometimes when you are in a busy season. So it totally.

Dr. Katie 0:34

And it's so funny because I was mentioning to you, we've been doing so much travel and so much craziness and everything's going on. And I was supposed to play golf this afternoon, and and I just I can't. I'm I'm tired. And for me to say no to golf, you know, it's it's a lot. But it's we've talked about this before. We've got to have these boundaries where we just stop.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:57

Mm-hmm. Not only boundaries, but also just in times where we feel like we have to have that renewal and that rest, that's good too. But yeah, I think sometimes when I'm I'm doing a lot of new to me things right now, and it's good, but I also feel exhausted, and we have a very timely topic today because new to us things can be good and it can be bad, and it can make us feel good and bad. And a lot of us tend to take that negative bias in our brains, and we go toward the bad. So we're gonna talk about that today.

Dr. Katie 1:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's funny because when we talk about topics for the podcast, we're like, what are we talking? What are we talking a lot about? Or, you know, what are our conversations geared towards? Or quite frankly, like last week's with Jason, like what are we interested in learning more about? And so this week we're going to talk about the truth about imposter syndrome and leadership. And it's so funny because I have this

Naming Imposter Syndrome In Leaders

Dr. Katie 2:05

conversation. Maybe not funny is the right word, maybe it's just eye-opening the amount of times I've had this conversation, and literally just came from lunch with a friend where we talked about imposter syndrome, and it is it's it's real, and we just don't talk about it enough. So I'm glad we're talking about it today.

Rhonda Jolyean 2:26

Yeah, I'd be interested to know if you have more conversations, if there's a gender that you have it more with, or if it is across the board when it comes to leaders.

Dr. Katie 2:38

Yeah. I will say I think more often women admit it. I it's funny because the the person I was having lunch to wasn't with was a man. And when I said imposter syndrome, he's self-aware and he was like, Yes, yes. But I think sometimes when I say it to men, they're like, no, no. And I think that's some of that, you know, we're supposed to have confidence, we're supposed to have it all together. And so I see it more with women, and it's it's really interesting. What really got me to push for this podcast was I was having coffee with a woman, and she said to me, Do you ever struggle with imposter syndrome? And I was like, Oh god, yeah, like absolutely, like on last Tuesday, probably about 30 minutes ago. Like, yes, yes. And she said, you know, I'm just so sick of everyone looking like they have it together. Like, but remember, social media is all about filters and false perceptions. Most people are not willing to put their messy out there and they want to look confident and put together. And so that's what I was trying to explain to her. And I was like, oh, this is a great conversation for us to have because you know, as we grow in our responsibility, as we become more visible, as we, you know, get get out in front of people, we have this obligation of behaving in a way that people don't think that we're we're perfect or polished or that we have everything together all the time.

Rhonda Jolyean 4:11

Yeah, we also have to remember that now, even it has become commoditized of putting the messy out there, as you say, is now an act as well. So, where is the authenticity? You can't really I think having those vulnerable conversations with people that you feel safe with and that are close to is really the only thing that you can trust. And as a leader, that's something that you have to be able to do. And as a leader, having mentors and things like that, we're gonna have a separate episode where we go through everything, you know, the different tactics and tangible ways that we can live with imposter syndrome and help ease imposter syndrome. We're never gonna get over it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Right.

Rhonda Jolyean 5:04

But for me, when it comes to imposter syndrome and creativity, and what I talk about a lot is imposter syndrome is well, the first thing I think about with imposter syndrome is growing up in an age where everybody said, fake it till you make it. Yes, I think that's oh, I hate that phrase. I know, and I feel like it's only been the last 10 to 15 years where people have said, I hate that phrase, you know. And for me, as somebody who grew up in the theater, I understand that it's almost embodying confidence until it feels real to you or embodying a different piece of your personality or whatever. But to a lot of people, it doesn't work because fake it till you make it, you want to be an authentic to you person, especially when you are in that leadership position. An imposter syndrome, it almost when you say fake it till you make it, it assumes that you're not enough now. And having imposter syndrome does not mean that you are failing. Imposter syndrome actually shows up the most when we are trying something new, stretching ourselves, or trying to be innovative. So when you think about it that way, it is an opportunity and it is full of possibilities. It's just a way that it's our brain's way of helping us to survive, if you will. And there's this neuropsychologist, and I used to listen to his podcast all the time. He's great. His name is Rick Hansen, and he sums it up like this He says,

Gender Differences And Filtered Confidence

Rhonda Jolyean 6:50

Evolution built a brain that routinely makes three mistakes overestimating threats, underestimating opportunities, and underestimating our own resources to handle both. And I really like the way that he talks about that because really, your brain isn't, our brains aren't built to try to make us successful. Our brains are literally just built to keep us alive. So, in that way, when you're trying to build a new business, build a new system for your team, hit your quarterly goals, etc., your brain is just trying to do the bare minimum to keep us alive. So having imposter syndrome is stretching yourself, it's full of opportunities. And again, we have to constantly fight against that negativity bias that we're going to innately have. And if we think about it that way and flip that script, that's for me what makes it more digestible, if you will, to have that imposter syndrome.

Dr. Katie 7:53

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And it's it's funny because it was about four years ago I was going to speak at this women in construction event, and I'm like, I I gotta find an alternative, fake it till you make it, because I hate that phrase and I hear it all the time. And so I did a did some reading, and I now like to say learn it while you earn it, right? So I like that. Keep earning it, keep growing. But that helps with the imposter syndrome, right? It's that growth mindset, it's that we're we're moving forward. And I think it's really important for us to talk about what imposter syndrome actually is, and quite frankly, isn't it because it's not in competence, it's not that we can't do the job, it's it's that awareness of the responsibility of it, right? It's that it's that little voice that creeps in that's you know, like you said, your brain's made to keep you alive, not happy. So it's the it's the do we belong here? Can we do this? Should we be in the room? Don't speak up so you don't sound stupid. The one, especially with women I push is perfectionism is a sign of imposter syndrome. Yes. So many people are so proud to be perfectionists, and it's like, oh no, no, no, no, no. That is something we need to break you of because if you're not perfect, then you're a failure. Like, no, like we're learning it, we're we're going, we're we're growing. And so imposter syndrome really shows up for all of us. We we all have imposter syndromes, we all question ourselves at times. I I there's several women that are starting businesses, and there's three of them that I'm fortunate to spend time with all the time. Just kind of this informal mentoring. And I've got two texts right now going with both of them, and it all has to do with imposter syndrome. It all has to do with them questioning themselves and can they do this? And and in both the texts back to them, I've said, if I could tell you how many times in the first year of my business that I looked for a job, that I was starting job applications, that I was like, okay, this is the day, this is the day that I can't do this. But then it's that that work that I've done and and everything else. And and quite frankly, having people tell me, like, you've got this. But we all question ourselves. And and the the challenge sometimes when we're overconfident or we're fighting against talking about imposter syndrome, it's actually more dangerous than that self-reflection than admitting, you know what? Maybe I am lacking some confidence, maybe I do have some imposter syndrome, but so often we think that that's a bad thing that the overconfidence actually makes it more messy. Right.

Rhonda Jolyean 10:42

That speaks true to me. I again, I don't even remember hearing the term imposter syndrome until about 10 to 15 years ago. And I think I heard it from a female founder or exec, something like that, and thinking there's no way that I have that, and I'm not gonna admit to that, because that seems to just be a bundled up marketing term for the way that some

Why Fake It Till You Make It Fails

Rhonda Jolyean 11:10

people feel or the way that society wants me to feel. I think that that is a danger because, like you said, we all deal with lack of confidence in something: men, women, people who identify as other genders, you know, children, elderly, we all deal with that at some point in our lives. But the point is we don't all classify it as in quote unquote imposter syndrome. Packaging up and marketing it and then labeling people as such is really dangerous. And I think to have, you know, I rejected that label for a long time and still do to a point because for me, it's again the stretching. I'm stretching, I'm learning, I'm growing, I want to be in rooms or do things that is are new to me, be curious. I try to use different words, you know?

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Yeah, yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean 12:12

And I think that we have to be really careful of that. And so if people think about that in that way, maybe they come up with a different term. And I think that that's a really good, even for leaders that are mentoring their teams or talking about this with their teams. I think it's having these vulnerable conversations about how people feel about the phrase imposter syndrome is even a great starting point because it's not going to resonate with everyone. And then some people aren't even gonna really know the definition.

Dr. Katie 12:45

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's interesting because especially when I'm talking to men, but I say it to women as well. Like, you know, for me, sometimes, you know, lack of confidence brings on that imposter syndrome. And so, and and more often than not, I will say it's that lack of confidence or that that growth mindset, right? It's that fixed mindset that just keeps pulling us down and then little chip in our confidence, and then it and then we start spiraling. And and it can happen, like you said, to all of us in all situations. I I I'm sure I've shared it on the podcast before, but there I always go back to when Abby was being recruited to play golf, and there was a male golf coach that when he found out she was going to be biology and chemistry, he said, Well, you only play two years of of golf because science is hard. And and what he didn't finish in the phrase is for girls, because I asked him. I said, Do you say that to the men or just the women? He didn't ask offer Abby a golf scholarship. But Abby started to then think, Well, yes, I've always wanted to, since I was four, I've always wanted to be a marine biologist, but I've also kind of wanted to be a teacher, so maybe I should be a teacher. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're not gonna let someone who doesn't know you make one statement that changes your whole path, but it's so easy to do, even in the the people with the most confidence, even the people that know better, there's still sometimes that little voice in us that's like, maybe we should listen though.

Rhonda Jolyean 14:23

100% into the most random people, strangers, not people that we should be listening to. I and that's something too that going back to social media, the what feeds into a lot of the lack of confidence or what could be deemed as imposter syndrome is comparison. And I think about this a lot because I truly believe that comparison is the thief of joy. And yet, and yet we are bombarded, just as we aren't bombarded with information daily, we are bombarded with comparison opportunities daily. And the it's fascinating because in the neuroscience of comparison, where we digest comparison in our brain, it is in the same region that processes pain and loss. So when your brain processes somebody else's wins, it is processing it the same way that it processes loses some, loses something, losing something. Jeez, today was my words, but that's not a weakness, that's our brain's wiring. So you could think of it as you see someone on Instagram and they won out a bid over you on a contract, their team won out a bid, and you feel that jealousy or that comparison. I'm not enough,

Perfectionism As A Warning Sign

Rhonda Jolyean 15:55

or they got that job over me, or why didn't I get it? It's truly your brain processing that loss, that grief, which is insane and it's also validating.

unknown 16:09

Yeah, makes sense.

Rhonda Jolyean 16:10

Yeah, it totally makes sense, and that's why social media amplifies that inadequacy often, and the nervous system interprets any uncertainty as danger. You know, that can be a loss for us if we don't know what's to come. And we, as going back to the perfectionists of it all, a lot of creative people and high achievers are perfectionists, and those types of people tend to experience that way more intensely. So in 2024, there was a survey that found that 71% of US CEOs reported imposter syndrome. And the research, the research showed that it disproportionately hits the driven, capital, capable, and ambitious. Thus, the higher you climb, the louder it often gets. So, yeah. So again, that comparison because you are looking, well, there's fewer of you as you get higher and higher, you're climbing, climbing, and comparing towards less people, then you're feeling that grief more and more, which is makes me really sad. Yeah, yeah, it just seems so lonely.

Dr. Katie 17:32

Yeah, and it's interesting too, because you think it the lonely part, right? Like they they don't have a lot of people they can talk to or to vent to or to and and interesting you talking about that because you think about at the higher level, we're afraid oftentimes, not all the times, we gotta get better at this, is part pointing the podcast, of showing any weakness because we don't want someone to take that as leverage. And so yeah, that's that's fascinating to yeah, to think about. Not surprising, but fascinating. Um, and when you know it when I think about from the leadership side of imposter syndrome, I see this all the time where new leaders get promoted without any support. And so they they don't know what they don't know. So they walk in a room or their people are asking questions and they're trying to like help them, support them. They don't know how to be a strong leader, or they don't know about the new product or the new position or whatever. I see this a lot with women in male-dominated industries, entrepreneurs, younger professionals. But it really starts with like, do I belong in this room? Right. And will will people realize that I don't know everything? You know, everyone knows what they're doing but me. You know, it's all those things that our voice says that that creates this self-doubt and this panic and this little like, oh, I don't know, I don't know, don't do that, or don't speak up, or don't, don't sit there at the table, sit off to the side. And it it just shows up in so many ways that I think, and I think sometimes as leaders, when people on our team have imposter syndrome, we don't see it as imposter syndrome necessarily, or lack of confidence, or maybe even lack of training. We see it as inability to do their job, right? Well, they they they can't do the job. And it's like, well, maybe they just don't have the comfortableness or the confidence to say, hey, I need help, I need support. Because the voice in the head is screaming, you don't deserve this role, you can't do the job. You get out, get out, get out, get out, get out.

Rhonda Jolyean 19:51

Well, and then that goes back to having those feedback loops of psychological safety, authentic conversations. And we as leaders have that responsibility of setting up the culture wherein those conversations can happen. It's not on anyone else to be able to have to set that up. We have to set that up and have that culture, have that structure, or else our team won't feel safe enough to come to us and to have those conversations. Yeah. And no matter what, there is gonna be perfectionists because of the way that we were raised. We've talked about that before. We're gonna do an upcoming series on the stories that we tell ourselves, which I mean, I wish my voices in my head would go away. Yes, yes, all that time. But there is a lot of research about how perfectionism, perfectionism versus authenticity leads into imposter syndrome. And Brene Brown snaps for her, you know, her research is basically the standard frame here. And she says that perfectionism is about external validity, healthy striving is all about internal drive. Perfectionism is a shield and authenticity is a door.

Comparison Brain Science And CEO Data

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Ooh.

Rhonda Jolyean 21:23

I like that. And I think as leaders, if we think about setting up our teams in that way, it even structurally, if you think about it from a neuroaesthetic standpoint, that speaks to me in a way that sets up that physical structure. Yeah. Yeah. But there is, you know, clear reasoning too. And we talked about this two podcasts ago when we talked about you can show up as somebody who is either really polished or you can show up as somebody who people actually trust. Be vulnerable. And there is science behind why people actually connect more with people who show up in their humanity instead. And Gallup research shows that teams with vulnerable leaders actually see a 25% jump in their engagement because vulnerability is more likely to build trust with those leaders. And vulnerability then leads to harder working, you know, more critical conversations. And then that ultimately leads to higher engagement, which leads to happier teams, which we then know leads to better results.

Dr. Katie 22:39

Yeah. Yeah. And people feel like they belong and this acceptance and they feel safe to then say, Hey, leader, I need help or I need support or I need, I need, I need a pep talk. Sometimes we just need a pep talk. Like you've got this. I've assigned it to you because you can handle it.

Rhonda Jolyean 23:01

And I know that when I was working for executives, if they were more vulnerable again with during big transitions or big changes, when they didn't know the answers, or when they would admit, you know, if they were a little bit not fearful of the unknown, but uns uncertain as we were of the unknown, that gave that camaraderie with the teams and then set up that feedback loop of being able to have those conversations with the team members. And it just, yeah, we don't need somebody who's polished or the best speaker or who gives the most motivative talks all of the time. You want somebody who you can have those really intimate conversations with and who you can tell that you might not feel the most confident all the time with.

Dr. Katie 24:01

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's powerful. And I think oftentimes we when we're thinking about how we show up and how we build relationships and make connections, our imposter syndrome sometimes causes us to shrink. And we we see that as, you know, well, we're we're being humble or we're we're, you know, being quiet or we're not overstepping people, where really it is the the shrinking that happens. And we see this where people downplaying accomplishments or minimizing expertise, they have the answer, but they don't want to say it because they don't want anyone else in the room to feel feel dumb, right? Apologizing for for taking up space or or taking up time a lot of times, especially with women, wait until we feel fully ready to like I'm I 100% qualified for the job, then that's not your job. Like you've got that job mastered, like be the boss of that job. Um, and I think it's it's so interesting. And and we just got back from my daughter's boyfriend's graduation this past weekend, Mountain, Colorado, and their president of the university. Oh, Rhonda, she is powerful. Like you would have been. I'm sitting there like taking notes. When was the last time you heard a presidential university speech? I'm taking notes because she was really challenging this generation, and they're in a time of of need and time of change and challenge, and it was cool. But she said, sometimes your voice is inconvenient, but don't

Vulnerability Builds Trust And Engagement

Dr. Katie 25:40

silence it or make it quieter. I ignore that. Oh boy, that needs to be a bumper sticker, but think about that from an imposter syndrome or even a humility standpoint. Like, oh, my voice is inconvenient, so let me just not say what needs to be said, or you know, share the answer or whatever. And and you know, we've got to own our voice, we gotta have confidence in our in our background. And again, the lunch I just had with one of my good friends, and he got some feedback in some of the interview that he kind of overcommunicated. And I said, You gotta get out of your head because you're great at relationship building, you're great at connections, you've done it your whole life, like you've got it. But that imposter syndrome and that confidence and all that struggle is creeping in, and you've got to be like, No, I I got this, and and and but he just he had been spiraling in in the interview because he just kept hearing that that phrase.

Rhonda Jolyean 26:44

I know some specific people who are listening to this podcast right now, who I will not call out for anonymity's sake, and I know that they needed to have heard that line and take that to heart because often as leaders we are put into positions, especially in this climate in which we are living, and we know the right thing to do, we know the right paths and the right action to take, and it is really hard. It's the hard thing to do, and it's maybe not the not the most popular thing to do, and yet our voice is gonna be inconvenient, and we still need to make it heard because it is the right thing, and uh so I hope that the people that are listening hear that because the world will be a better place.

Dr. Katie 27:47

So yeah, yeah, well, and it's it's all the way around, right? We we're not going to be Jenna Scott, you say, you know, I'm not everyone's cup of tea, but sometimes I'm someone's, you know, strong cup of coffee. Uh and I think you know, it's it's okay. Not everyone is going to love us, not everyone is going to like us, not everyone, but not everyone's gonna hate us, right? It's the you just gotta be authentically who you are and practice that, practice that confidence. It truly is a skill, and we can train our brain. We've talked about growth mindset, we can train ourselves to get there.

Rhonda Jolyean 28:23

Yeah, I believe that. Totally believe that.

Dr. Katie 28:27

Well, and so the next episode, we're going to do one of our leadership briefs, and we're gonna talk about how we manage imposter syndrome and what leaders need to understand about their teams when it comes to imposter syndrome. And we're gonna have some reflection questions on the next one that people can practice and even work through with their teams if they want.

Rhonda Jolyean 28:50

Yeah, more real-world examples and maybe if you know, things that you could do today. And also, I think some personal, I'm gonna bring in some personal activities that you can do if you're struggling. I know in my personal life, there are some community activities that I step into where I'm stretching myself, and I want to be able to have more confidence in that. And so we want to make sure this is holistic in our approach.

Dr. Katie 29:23

So yeah, well, and our goal is not really to eliminate imposter syndrome, it's gonna be like we're going to have those moments where that lack of confidence creeps in. But what we're really our goal is to really stop letting it stop you, like speak up, do the thing, you know, it's it's okay.

Rhonda Jolyean 29:42

Yes, totally. And yeah, I'm I'm excited for that. And I think this has been a really good conversation. I hope that people walk away understanding that they can define imposter syndrome the way that they need to, and that it is a stretching growth mechanism, and it is not a bad thing, and you should you're not lacking anything

Make Your Inconvenient Voice Heard

Rhonda Jolyean 30:10

in having it.

Dr. Katie 30:11

Yeah, yeah. We all have moments, even if we put a pretty filter on our Instagram post. We all have those moments where that little voice in our head is talking, and sometimes the voice in our head is screaming, and so you're not alone. If you're listening to this, if nothing else, please. I hope you say, I feel seen, I feel, I feel heard, I feel just a little less alone. I think you know, social media has really, and we've seen this just in groups as we've grown up, but we really see it. Social media has just made it really, really hard for us to to compare ourselves and it's not worth it.

Rhonda Jolyean 30:49

Yep, be authentic, have those authentic conversations.

Dr. Katie 30:52

Yeah. Well, and so we have to thank all the people that listen to the podcast, that download the podcast, that listen from from all over. It's been fun to to see. I did I didn't see if we had any new uh locations. So while I'm looking that up, will you talk to people about how important it is for them to share the podcast, all that good stuff? And I'll see if we got any new spots.

Rhonda Jolyean 31:20

Yeah, we have like a little gratitude corner, I guess you could say. Thanks to everyone who has shared and reviewed and downloaded the podcast. The easiest way to show your support, and we thank you for everyone who has done so thus far, is to just follow us on any streaming platform. So Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Katie's website, anywhere you get your podcasts, that will help us. You can also rate and review us. So you can just click that five stars if you'd like, or you can send a link to any one of our podcast episodes and share with friends. Any kind, you don't we don't have any paid subscriptions or anything like that, but just downloading our episodes helps us so much. It helps other people find our show, and we couldn't be more grateful to everyone around the globe who listens to us.

Dr. Katie 32:15

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I know my husband is always like three or four episodes behind. I'm like, dude, they come out on Tuesday, like, get it. He's like, it's automatically downloaded, downloads, but he always wants to talk to me on an episode from like four weeks ago. And I'm like, no, I want to talk about last week's episode. It was so good. It was so good. I got Rob's chart from Jason, and now I've got to set up a Zoom call to

Listener Thanks And How To Help

Dr. Katie 32:40

have it read. I can't, I just can't wait. I cannot wait. Oh, that's so fun. Um, yeah, and Jason being out from California, we had a six percent increase or six percent of our listeners last week were from the LA area. Okay. Uh so appreciate that. Four percent were from was from Prosper, Texas. Uh, so don't know who's in Prosper, but thank you so much for listening. And then a big bump in Idaho. Thank you, Boise. We appreciate you. Yay, I don't know. I know. So fun, so fun. So well, yes, we appreciate everyone. Thank you for all you do. Next week is gonna be a leadership brief. We're gonna go rapid fire through real practical advice on imposter syndrome. Um, and then I say in June we do the series on stories we're telling ourselves. We keep coming back to that.

Rhonda Jolyean 33:34

So yeah, and people are excited. So we'll do that. Good.

Dr. Katie 33:38

Awesome. All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening, and we'll talk to you next week on the path to leadership. Bye, everyone.

Rhonda Jolyean 33:45

Bye.