The Art Of Saying No

Saying no can feel like slamming a door, but for most leaders it’s really a fight with belonging, approval, and the fear of missing out. We dig into why our default becomes “yes” even when we’re exhausted, why that split-second decision feels so personal, and how it quietly turns into resentment, inconsistent priorities, and burnout. If you’ve ever looked at your calendar and felt your stomach drop, you’re not alone and you’re not “bad at time management.”

We also get specific about the neuroscience of overcommitment. When we chase the dopamine hit of being needed and avoid the social threat of rejection, we can end up in chronic stress. We talk about decision fatigue, what burnout can do to the prefrontal cortex, why cortisol isn’t built to run high forever, and how joy can literally stop registering when dopamine blunts. This isn’t just a productivity problem. It’s a leadership health problem with real consequences for how you think, decide, and lead.

From there, we shift into practical tools you can use immediately: reframing no as alignment, using no to protect your yes, and modeling healthy boundaries so your team feels permission to do the same. We share simple filters to run every request through alignment, capacity, impact, and ownership plus ways to say “not now” when a full no feels like an identity loss. If you want better focus, stronger trust, and more sustainable leadership, this is your reset.

Subscribe for weekly leadership conversations, share this with someone who’s drowning in yeses, and leave a review with the hardest boundary you’re trying to set right now.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why No Matters

Dr. Katie 0:32

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Path to Leadership. I'm Dr. Katie and I'm Rhonda Jolene. We are so thrilled to have you listening today, whether you're a new listener or a longtime listener. It is it is so fun to watch the downloads and where they're coming from and all the people joining us.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:52

Absolutely. I had some people this weekend pull me aside at a party and tell me that they had downloaded our podcast and I had no idea. And it meant the world. And to continue those conversations in real life means so much. And that's what it's all about is us trying to help people with their personal and professional lives when it comes to leadership and making those big decisions. And today I know that we have a topic that we get asked a lot about and that we have lots of questions about. And I am ready to dive in because it is always, I think, on top of leaders' minds.

Dr. Katie 1:35

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And it's funny how this topic came about because we saw each other, as the kids would say, what is an IRL in real life? We saw each other on Friday just catching up. And both of us were like, things are good, things are great. Also, we're exhausted, or we have this, and we then we were like, okay, what should we talk about on the podcast? I'm like, maybe about just being tired.

Rhonda Jolyean 2:03

Well, but I also said that you because it's no shocker to anyone that you have amazing chaos happening in your life in such a good way. And yet you were telling me a story about how you needed to say no to some stuff this weekend with your daughter. And if you're a longtime listener, you'll know that you and your daughter have such a great relationship. And I love that. And saying no was really hard, and yet needed you needed to do it for your mental and physical health this weekend. And I said to you, wow, putting that boundary into place is healthy and really hard to do. And then we talked about how we should probably talk about the art of saying no and how hard that is.

FOMO And The Pressure To Say Yes

Dr. Katie 2:54

Yeah, it was so hard to say no. And it was really hard to say no because not only did my daughter call, but she put me on speakerphone and like all of her sorority sisters and friends were like, please, Mama Katie, please, please. And I'm like, let me think about it. Because in the moment, my my heart was screaming, of course I'll, of course I'll do it. Of course I'll do it. And like my brain and the rest of my body is like, no, you need a nap. Like, don't be peer pressured. You're 50 years old. Like, no. No, the answer is no. And so the cool thing was we still got to squeeze in a quick visit with my daughter, but we were home and I was in bed by 8:30 on Saturday, which was wonderful.

Rhonda Jolyean 3:33

Very epic, very hard to do. I admire it. And I know a lot of our listeners struggle with that because there's the fear of missing out. There's the how can I be successful unless I say yes to everything, not wanting to upset people with saying no. So we're gonna get into all of that today.

Dr. Katie 3:55

Yeah, you're you're so right. And there's that that tension, that push pull, you know, where it's like, especially as a leader, like I want to say yes because it's opportunity, it's visibility, it's growth, it's, you know, who's in the room, who do I need to meet, who do I need to connect with? But then the saying no, there really is, like you said, that that missing out or that judgment or letting people down. There's just not enough time in the day. We just can't do it all. And so we have to create these these boundaries to take care of ourselves.

Rhonda Jolyean 4:30

Yeah. And boundary, I think, is an overused word because what does that even mean? I mean, I heard about it first in therapy and like with family members or with topics that you don't want to discuss with people. And I think it's so overused that sometimes we don't know how to properly apply them in our lives. And no is still hard for me to say, especially going back to conversations that we've had about being quote unquote the nice Midwest girl or growing up that way. But it's something that to be a good leader, you have to do because you can't have time for everyone. It's like kind of like that old saying, if you're friends with everyone, you're friends with no one. Yeah. It's kind of the same thing. If you try to do everything, you're gonna be able to do nothing well. And so I'm excited to get your perspective on this, especially working with leaders in various industries. And you know, from a neuroscience perspective, saying no is super uncomfortable, right? And I wanted to get your thoughts, and then I can add in a little bit about some of the key points around neuroscience.

Dr. Katie 5:45

Yeah, yeah, I'm fascinating. I can't wait to hear about the neuroscience piece because when I was just thinking about this from a leadership standpoint, you know, we it's so often we're conditioned to be helpful and to be available. You know, we want to be the next one to step up. We want to have the opportunity. And I know, especially really early in my career, and I love it when I I'm doing so much speaking right now to millennials and Gen Zs, which is really fun because I can be like, here's all the mistakes I made earlier in my career. Um earlier in my career, especially, like I was afraid to say no because what if what if they don't offer again? What if they don't, you know, what if they see me that I'm not willing to help or I'm not available, or all of those kind of things that our brain, you know, worries about, you know, from a leadership standpoint. We also feel this pressure, especially these middle managers, we feel pressure from the people above us to, you know, do something they've asked us to do. And then the pressure from the people below us to perform and to deliver. And and so this when we say yes to everything, there's just not enough time in the calendar. And but also saying no feels risky because what if? And and so there's this massive leadership reality push-pull that that we really are constantly fighting with, right?

Rhonda Jolyean 7:10

It's there's a level of maturity to an experience that you kind of have to live through. And truly, from a neuroscience perspective, there's the social threat of the fear of missing out, being left out. You know, you don't for me specifically, I don't want to miss out on quote unquote anything in life, but also you don't want to be rejected from people. So, like you were talking with the middle managers, you don't want to be rejected as a manager, either from the people that you manage or from people who you are managed by. And there's also the loss of belonging. So, one of the things that you and I have talked about a lot is being seen. We as human beings have that innate need of being seen as a human being and belonging. We are community-minded people or beings, and the loss of belonging anywhere is a foundational fear that everybody has. So if you say no, you be rejected and then have that loss of belonging. So these are things that go back centuries that we that our brain is just it's in everybody's brain, and some of us work better with it than others. Also, there is the dopamine hit that we get when we say yes, and then of course, we'll talk later about the lack of dopamine when we're burnt out by saying yes too much. Yeah, and then also there is the decision fatigue that a lot of us have with all of the information coming at us and all of the opportunities that we have now for travel, saying yes to events, connecting with people, being able to have more opportunities in life. So we might say yes in the moment. And then there's all those memes that say, I, you know, I wanted to say yes to the party, but just to say that I had been there when really I was in my pajamas on a Friday night, you know, it's like, yeah, or I wanted to have said I ran the marathon, but really just have said that. That decision fatigue is real. And we've talked a lot about how many decisions that we make per day and how much information is coming at us. So there's a lot of foundational human mental gymnastics, if you will, that our brain goes through just in that moment of I can't say no because of all of these things that I might lose.

The Brain Science Behind No

Dr. Katie 9:56

Yeah. Yeah. And as you're talking about that, I just think, you know, from a social media standpoint, right? The fear of missing out and the, you know, belonging. And and there's so much research out there right now about how lonely everybody is, but also we're also tired. And so there's this, like you said, this push-pull of, I want to be ass. I may not show up, but I want to be ass. But I know I was talking, I went to dinner Friday night with a really, really good friend, and we had rescheduled a couple times, and you were like, maybe you should reschedule. And I was like, No, I've rescheduled so many times with her. And there's a point where it's like, it's not even worth it, you know, it's not even worth it. So we were talking about a mutual acquaintance that we invite all the time, all the time, all the time. And the person always says, Well, I'm never included, I'm never included. It's like, girl, you never show up, like you never ever show up. And so it is this balance, which is is so hard, I think, to to do, but there is a cost when we always say yes, there is a a massive cost and uh consequence to it.

Rhonda Jolyean 11:02

Yes, 100%.

Dr. Katie 11:04

Yeah. Well, and when I when I'm on stage, when I'm talking about this, I'm I'm doing the thing where you see the the acts where people are spinning plates, you know, you're spinning plates. I don't yeah, I don't know that the younger generations probably have seen that. I think we used to see it in the circus or maybe like on a variety show. Um, but if you think about this, if you're spinning multiple plates, if you have 10 plates spinning, you're running between all of these plates, trying to keep them all spinning. And that's where if we say yes to every plate, if we say yes to every opportunity, there is that all of those those problems with the burnout and the resentment. I would love to hear your thoughts on the resentment of when we say yes, but we really want to say no. But then also that loss of energy. It, you know, it's it's there, it's real.

Rhonda Jolyean 11:54

Yes. You know, I first of all, you talking about a lot of spinning plates makes me exhausted. Thinking about it. I heard this great uh quote once that said, resentment is anger continuing, like this constant anger. And if you think about it, think about something that you've resented. It's if you think about being angry at something like your partner not doing the dishes, it's generally a moment in time and then you get through it. But if you are resentful of something, it's a continuation of anger, and that hurts so much. That's so if you continuously say yes to things, even when you mean no, you're going to have a constant flow of anger in your life at yourself, at the people who ask you, at the situation. Then you're going to start to turn internally and feel guilty. You're going to be angry at being angry at yourself. There's so many layers. Resentment is one of the nastiest emotions that we can have as human beings. It is very toxic for ourselves. And really, the only person that you're battling is yourself. You know? Yeah. So that's a that's a big one for me. I might makes my stomach sick to talk about resentment, actually. Um, and then that loss of energy for what actually matters, that goes back to that decision fatigue that you can't even prioritize anything when you have decision fatigue, you don't know what is priority because there's all the spinning plates as you were talking about. So yeah, my stomach hurts now. Thank you for being on.

Dr. Katie 13:52

My pleasure. My pleasure. Well, let's bring us down a little deeper, too, because there's leadership cost to all of this, because when we say yes to everything, we have we're inconsistent with our priorities. I know I work with leaders all the time that are like, there's just not enough time in the day. We just can't get it all done. They're running from meetings to meetings to meetings to meetings. They're confusing their team with all their priorities and all their yeses. And we see that. And then they're not getting anything done. Like it is a huge problem in business. And and I know some of my clients that I work with, we one of the projects we're really working on is let's finish a project, like let's wrap it up before we say yes to the next. And so practicing a parking lot, like it's not a bad idea, it's just not a priority today. Like, let's put it in a parking lot so we don't lose it, but also let's keep keep going the way on on down the road. And I think it's so important. And, you know, when I think about my research, when I think about all the work that I do, especially in self-determination theory, when we overcommit, when we do too much, it really violates motivation. It gets in the way because when we say yes to too much, we don't have autonomy because our time is spent on everybody else's priorities, everybody else's yes that we said to, everybody else's schedule. I mean, it's just it's too much. Um, from a confidence standpoint, can we do the job well? No. No, when you're spinning a hundred plates or even 10 plates when when everything's a priority, when everything is number one, nothingness. So we don't do it well, we don't get it done on time, you know, we disappoint ourselves, we disappoint others. And then the relatedness point of motivation is it damages relationships, that resentment, that that feeling we have with ourselves and with others, it is so damaging. And and I love this quote when every every yes is a no to something else, and most leaders just don't decide what the something else is.

Rhonda Jolyean 16:10

Yes. And how hard is that though, as a human being? I to say yeah, I was just having a conversation this morning about how do you pick priorities. I have a friend who's so good about having the frog and tadpoles of each day. So you can think about it. She only does three things off of her quote unquote parking lot every day. And that helps keep her sane and quote unquote successful in her getting things done in life. And I think about it as big and small rocks. So you might have a big rock and a small rock, two small rocks. And for me, that even stresses me out because I know that my to-do list will never be complete in life, and you should never really want it to be complete because then what is there? However, how do you prioritize things unless you know what are the big rocks versus the small rocks or the big frog versus the tiny tadpoles? And that is something that in corporate America, I don't think we discuss enough. That's what when you go back to your values, to your vision, etc. But as human beings, we tend to prioritize everything, like you said, and then you cannot do anything well because when you're friends with everybody, you're friends with nobody.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Right, right.

Resentment And The Hidden Costs

Dr. Katie 17:38

Yeah, yeah. Well, and that just makes me think the whole, you know, oxygen mask, right? On the airplane when you put your oxygen mask on first. And I just did a session last Friday for Lewood Chambers Young Professionals. I love that group. I'm doing a whole series with them and talked about, you know, we we have to stop canceling on ourselves. Like our we I always put stuff on my calendar, and I have retainer clients that have first divs in my calendar, but no one else I remove stuff off my calendar for. And so, and I won't delete the block, I will just shift it an hour or shift it a little bit. But anyone else, it's like, no, this is a protected time for me. And at the beginning of the week, like I start my Monday morning sitting at my computer prioritizing my week. And then Friday before I close it down, I do my reflection, what got done, what didn't. Right. Yes.

Rhonda Jolyean 18:35

And I need to, I will say this out loud to be accountable to myself, to you, to our audience, because when you say it out loud, it manifests, but also you have that accountability. Yes. I continually think about the people who are the richest in this world. And I am not saying they are good or bad people, I'm not saying anything on that, but what I am saying is it does not matter how much money you have, the one thing you cannot buy is time. And when I remember that, that makes time more valuable. And I, because we all have you know the same amount when you look at it as human beings, not as you know, how much we live or whatever. I want to be able to value my time. And as uh, you know, the Libra part of me says, Oh, let's just go with the flu and see what happens. And that's in theory sounds fine, but we don't le live in a society that operates that way. And then I get into resentment, I get into the decision fatigue, and then I shut down and I have burnout. And honestly, uh what happens is I have an overcommitment or that decision fatigue, and there are real consequences, like you talked about, that happen to our body. So one thing that happens to our body when we overcommit chronically, or we have that decision fatigue, is that our brain literally reconstructs reconstructs itself. So chronic stress shrinks our prefrontal cortex. And we've talked about this before. This is the part of our brain that is responsible for planning, decision making, and the emotional regulation. And so scientists have actually done MRI studies that confirm that there's reduced gray matter density in the prefrontal cortex among people with burnout. Oh, yeah. No, we can we can get it back, but there's, you know, that is scientifically proven. So the translation is that you become physically wired for reactivity instead of reason, which again, you have all of these decisions to make as a team. You prioritize everything, you can be successful at nothing.

Dr. Katie 21:11

Yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean 21:11

You also, a second thing that happens to your body and brain is your stress system eventually crashes. When cortisol stays elevated too long, and we know this because our our bodies were made to elevate cortisol running from bears and tigers and things that were gonna eat us back in the day. But now we have uh the decision fatigue of do I go to this party? How will I pay the bills? Why aren't the dishes done? All of these things. It's a state called hypocortisolism. And our body then the engine runs too long and then it blows a gasket. So it stays elevated, and that's not a state at which our body is supposed to maintain that level. And then this is the saddest thing to me is that because of these things, joy stops registering. Burnout severely blunts dopamine and the dopamine system, and that's not a mindset problem, that's neurobiological. So when you're in burnout, you we we know that burnout causes clinical depression. We know that you're not able to feel that. Dopamine as much and get those hits. And so literally, you stop feeling joy as much. And it just makes my heart hurt. And I've and I've personally felt this. I've been this way. And I know more and more Americans are feeling this, if not world round. And it has to make people stop and think that we cannot be in this chronic overcommitment and also just chronic stress fatigue as well.

Priorities That Teams Can Follow

Dr. Katie 23:05

Yeah. Yeah. As you're talking, I it was making me think I got asked to do something on a really cool project that I can't wait to talk about here really, really soon. But I was reading a story that I'd never heard before about Ari Ariana Huffington. Have you ever heard the story about her burnout? Oh, yeah. How she like hit the desk. She like passed out. She was working like 18-hour days and grinding, grinding, grinding, grinding, grinding. And finally, her body is like, if you're not going to stop, I'm going to stop you. She passed out. And she like broke her cheekbone. And I mean, in there's a point where your body's like, I'm done. I've given you the warning signals, I'm done. Right. And that story when I read it, as I was relaxing it on the weekend and just catching up on stuff, I was like, I'm so glad that I said no. Like, yeah, that is a reinforcement.

Rhonda Jolyean 23:58

So, yes, I wish that we had that baked into society that we need rest as much as we need productivity. But for people that don't know, Ariana Huffington was the founder of Huff Poe. And then because of that, she because of that incident with burnout, she took a step back and she wrote a book called Thrive. And it's a really good book.

Dr. Katie 24:21

I recommend it to people. Yeah, I I'm continuing gonna continue to read more from it because I was just like, it was just so powerful and it reinforces the message that we talk about all the time, not just when we hit record, like we talk about it all the time. So let's reframe no. This is what I always tell people. I don't know where I heard this, but I heard it many, many years ago, Jomo, which is the joy of missing out, the joy of saying no. And and I tell people all the time, ask me. I'm really good at saying no. So if I can't do it, I will say no. But to me, there's some reframing to no, because I think often we say no, period. But what I have found is for me, the way I say no gives me some empowerment and some energy around it. So the first reframe I like to tell people about is no is not a rejection, it's alignment. So no is how you protect your yes. So a lot of times I will tell people, I am so appreciative that you invited me or included me or asked me. However, I don't currently have the capacity to do it, and I don't want to overcommit and not to be able to do it well or to do what needs to get done. And so it gets to alignment, but then it also takes to my reframe number two, which is it builds trust. I can't do it well if I overcommit. If I am really clear on my priorities and my focus, then I can do a job really well. But if I'm spinning too many plates, I can't. And to me, the the final reframe that I want people to think about is it's a leadership behavior. When at work, we say yes to everything, we model the behavior to our employees that they need to as well. And so we don't give them permission to say no to things, even though we might say it out loud, like it's okay if you don't have the capacity, but then our behavior tells them something wildly different. Right.

Rhonda Jolyean 26:30

I I mean, I love that we talk about that behavior and how you have to model that behavior all of the time.

Burnout Signals In Body And Brain

Dr. Katie 26:37

Yeah, yeah. And I think there's some filters we got to run things through that I don't think we often think about. And so the first one is alignment. Does this connect your priorities right now? And so when I am doing sessions on success and time management philosophy, like people will say, Do you talk about time management? No, you at this point in your life, you should know how to put things on a calendar. I'm not talking about time management, but what I talk about is a time management philosophy. What do you say your priorities are? And how does that align with what you say yes to? Because if you say your priorities are, I want to, you know, work on a book project, but then you're saying yes to everything that detracts you from it, then you're not, it's not really in alignment. So alignment doesn't connect to your priorities. Capacity, do I actually have the time or energy? Am I canceling on myself? Probably yes, if you're if you say yes to everything. Impact, is it meaningful or just urgent? And so that's the thing with my with my daughter was they had a friend who quite frankly needed a needed a mama. Like she just had been going through some stuff and she needed a mama. Well, I love the girl, I adore her so much. I'm not her, I am not her mother. And while it makes you feel so good that these young women look up to me and respect me, it it's it's a blip. It's it's not it was urgent to them. It wasn't meaningful or impactful. They didn't really need me to be there in that moment. And then ownership am I the right person or am I just available? Again, I'm not the girl's mama. I I know she respects me and loves me and cares for me. And so I had a side conversation with the young woman, but I didn't have to change my whole weekend to react.

Rhonda Jolyean 28:33

I think that's a great compromise because that would have been a really hard flat out no. And like you said, it's not a flat out no, it's just a reframe of the no. I do have a question for you though, and this came from a real life uh uh example. I was talking to a friend, and this is more around uh how do you say no to something when it's a personal passion and it's uh more of a loss of identity. So to keep this anonymous, because this no hasn't happened yet, this person just knows the no, knows the no needs to happen. I have a friend and they are part of a really cool, really big society. It's almost like a second job. And this person has been a part of this society for over 15 years. It is something that they dedicate like a second job. We, you know, this person does not cannot show up to a lot of our friend events because of it. It is part of their talent, they have skills, it is something that they love and adore, but because of some toxic things with relationships and some other happenings, they know that it's time for them to go. So they need to say no, but with that comes a very big loss of identity. So I'm looking, you know, kind of, you know, I wrote down what you were talking about, the four filters to say before you say yes. How would you talk to this person? Like what when it comes to that passion. So I guess when you talk about with a team, if it's a huge priority and it's a passion project for a team or for a leader, what would you say? You know, how can you say no when you know you need to, but it's just it's so hard.

Dr. Katie 30:42

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think it's, you know, the the we struggle with how to say no without being a jerk, right? It's how do we say no? And hearing that story just brings me back to a time, gosh, probably about six or seven years ago when I had to step away from the Alzheimer's Association. It is, it is a passion of mine and is something that is I I love sharing the conversation about brain health. I was very open sharing kind of my story with Alzheimer's and how it's been on both sides of my family, my husband's family, it's all over. And at the time, my mother-in-law had just been diagnosed, and and I had actually been giving a speech in San Diego talking about the chapters of my Alzheimer's story, and at the same time, a new chapter was getting ready to be written. And I mean, I was sitting there with like all of the feelings of I've got to keep spreading the message and I've got to keep waving the flag, but also for my own health, for my own well-being, it was so emotional and so hard. And so when I think about that story, you know, the toxicity for me was the emotion and the just the just it always being there. Like I could never escape what was happening. And so whether it's, you know, whether it's the topic, whether it's relationships, whether it's people, you know, I think we have to put our health first and have that really honest no, you know, I can't take this on right now. I I can't do it well. I have things that I'm going through. And so I have to step away. I I think that honest no, as honest as you can be. And and when people dynamics get into play, and especially when, you know, I always like to say, don't be nice, be kind, like tell the truth, you know, saying yes and then resenting it or staying in it. But also, I think I I'm gonna dance around this because the hard thing is, like when you say, I gotta step away from my own personal health and well-being, right? The toxicity still stays there. And so are there trusted people in that community and that environment that, and I don't know, I don't know the environment you're talking about. I would imagine, because there's some in Kin City that are political in nature, like who do you know who knows you? You know, there's some that, you know, it's part of the scene, it's where you get invitations to events, it's how you get into the room. And so it's hard, even if you're removing yourself from the day-to-day behaviors. Do you still want to have this kind of peripheral connection to it? And so I think for your friend, she has to decide what is the safest way to do it without burning the bridges she needs to not burn. There's no reason to flame it and walk out because I would imagine, like everything, not just in case anybody in the world, there's good and bad. There's there's wonderful aspects to the society, and then there's these challenging. And so doing that, and there's even the potential for her to do the not now, which is I can't commit right now. I've got to step back a little bit. I just have a lot of other things going on, but I'm open to revisiting this and in her timeline. Like maybe some stepping away from it may give her kind of this outside view of it. Right. Or, you know, maybe the projects going on, maybe that redirect. I'm probably not the best person for this, but here's who I'd suggest. Here's who could probably step in to fill that spot. And then we don't feel guilty like we're leaving leaving them in a lurch. But maybe it's an opportunity to be an ally and like lift somebody else up that has the capacity to step in.

Reframing No With Practical Filters

Rhonda Jolyean 34:45

Yeah. I like the not now. I also really like that you started off saying this is a chapter of my life that is, and this is why we're friends, because you and I that's those that that's exact verbiage that I used with her was when it comes to identity loss, that is difficult. And obviously, I've been in therapy for a really long time, and that's how I have to look at my life is different chapters.

Dr. Katie 35:13

Yes.

Rhonda Jolyean 35:14

And that I think applies to the not now. I also think there's validity in what you said earlier when it comes to saying no makes way for the right yeses. I didn't quote that correctly, but essentially that it's this person is also dealing with things in their other aspects of their life that I truly believe when they say this no or not now in the right way, reframing the no, it will open up the possibilities and opportunities for the right yeses in other aspects of their life. And that's how I like to think about things in my own life as well, because we can't give energy to everything. Yeah. And I do believe that the universe uh what is the saying? I used to say it all of the time, but the oh, the universe conspires to help us. And I really do believe that, but you have to be open to it. And the nose, if you if you do the nose the right way, it will make way for the universe to help you with the yeses.

Dr. Katie 36:26

I agree, I agree, and I think it's really powerful to, you know, to be able to say no and to step away and to redefine yourself. And I I think it's in that that constant redefinition of ourselves that I think we get truer and truer and truer to who we are, because so often we say yes to things out of habit or out of expectation. People expect me to say yes to that. People expect me to be there, people expect me to be in the room, and it that becomes our identity. And it's interesting. Something else I was reading this weekend is, you know, when we talk about our identity, you know, who are you? And people often lead with, you know, here's my job title, here's, you know, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, no, those are roles that you're currently playing in life. You know, I am Katie, I am a mother, I am a wife, I am a friend, I am a founder, like I am a researcher, I'm an author, like I am all of these things, right? Uh, in a title or a role or an act does not define who we are. And I think often we're afraid to say no because we have that habit of just saying yes and that it's our identity. Yes, I absolutely agree. Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, we we love homework, we love people giving people assignments. So, you know, what I would really like to challenge people this week is, you know, some reflection questions. What are you saying yes out of habit and not out of intention? And what is one thing you need to say no to, excuse me, this week? So when I did this for the young professionals group, I had them pull out their phone immediately. So if you're listening to this, I want you to pull out your calendar and look, what have you intentionally said yes to that you or that you did it out of habit? And so, what is one intentional no that you can say? What is something that you can say, nope, that doesn't align, that doesn't fit you know, my values or my calendar or you know who I say I am. I think that is a a powerful piece to reclaim a little bit of our our intentional yeses, yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean 38:36

And if you're having trouble, sometimes I can't always articulate my priorities. If you're having trouble figuring out what Katie just talked about, it's very easy when it comes to your body and your brain and your behaviors because you'll look at the calendar and your stomach will hurt, or you'll say, ugh, or you or you'll roll your eyes. Those are probably the things that you have resented saying yes to.

Dr. Katie 39:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I I love this quote as we were preparing for this. I came across with leadership isn't it isn't about doing more, it's about doing what matters on purpose. So we've got to do the things that matter. We've got to be real intentional, make those intentional connections, be in the right rooms for the intentional reasons, and stop over-scheduling yourself, overcommitting yourself so you can't do anything well.

Rhonda Jolyean 39:36

Yeah. If we were going to rename this podcast, it would have to have the word intention in it for sure. I feel like we say it in every single one of our podcasts.

Dr. Katie 39:46

Yeah, I think I think you're right. Yeah, if we would go back and change it from the path to leadership, it's your intentional self. Yeah, something. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, uh this is such a great way to we're kick off the week. So this comes out on Tuesday, people are gonna be hearing it. There's still time in your week to reclaim some time to, you know, look at next week. What are the things that you're overcommitting to and take some control?

Rhonda Jolyean 40:16

Yep, and I hope that people feel a little less resentment, can breathe a little easier, get some of that joy back, and let us know. We love to hear from you. And this topic, you know, has been brought up to us before, and Katie and I are living it. So, what are you living? And what would you like to hear us discuss next?

Homework Questions And Closing Requests

Dr. Katie 40:40

Yeah, yeah. So fun. I love when people, you know, like you said, you were at the party and your your girlfriend mentioned it. I love when people mention like, oh, it hit that landed. So, yeah, as you said, let us know, reach out. You can connect with us on LinkedIn, you can, depending on the podcast platform that you listen to this in, you can reply to the podcast, you can actually send messages. But we just want to hear from you all. What what's what's hitting, what's going through? What do you what what's happening in your day-to-day? So, and as always, please like, comment, share the podcast, you know, pass it on to someone who might need this, someone that needs to say no to something. Feel free to feel free to pass it on to them. Yes. All right. Well, we will wrap it up. I I don't know that we know what we're talking about next week, but I'm sure it's going to be meaningful. Oh, yes, we will say yes to the right thing. Yes, we will. Yes, we do. Well, thank you everyone for joining us on the path to leadership, and we'll talk to you next week. Bye, everyone. Bye.