Stop Stereotyping And Lead Multigenerational Teams Well

Generational conflict at work gets blamed on “kids these days” or “out of touch leaders,” but that story is way too small. We sit down to untangle what’s actually happening inside multigenerational teams and why the stereotypes about baby boomers, Gen X, millennials, and Gen Z keep getting repeated even when they don’t fit the real people in front of us.

We talk about what truly shapes generations: the social and economic moments that become your “remember where you were when…” memories, plus the technology environment that rewires how you learn, communicate, and build community. From post-war stability to corporate restructuring, from 9-11 and the Great Recession to COVID-era boundary setting, we trace how values form and why the technology gap can make today’s workplace friction feel deeper and faster than it used to.

Then we bring it back to leadership and motivation. Across every age group, people still want to feel competent, have autonomy, and experience connection. The difference is how those needs show up: independence versus flexibility, being included versus belonging, formal training versus self-directed learning. We also get blunt about the real issue many organizations face: weak middle management and outdated command-and-control habits that push talented people out.

If you lead people or plan to, press play, share it with a manager who needs it, and leave us a review. What’s one generational assumption you’re ready to drop?

Check out Dr. Katie's DisruptHR KC talk: https://disrupthr.co/vimeo-video/leadership-that-built-yesterdays-success-is-breaking-todays-workforce-dr-katie-ervin-disrupthr-talks/

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Transcript

Welcome And The Real Question

Dr. Katie 0:32

Welcome back to the path to leadership. I'm Dr. Katie. And I'm Rhonda Jolene. And we are so thrilled to have you this week. I'm excited for our topic this week. I actually, Rhonda, I didn't tell you this. I just had coffee with someone and the conversation went this direction. I was like, oh, this will be fun for the podcast recording. Oh, interesting.

Why We Overuse Generational Labels

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Well, I'll have to ask you later more about not personal aspects of this person, but maybe a little bit around the why the person was asking. Because on today's episode, we are talking about something that really baffles my mind a lot of the time. But we're talking about generational differences at work. And this is something that you actually give speeches about and talks about. And people clearly ask you about a lot. And it's something though, you know, we're I'm going to do a lot of the asking, and you're going to do a lot of the answering because you've done research. You obviously have a lot of HR background in this. And I have real world experience, but I also, we both grew up in a time where we were labeled as certain things. I mean, obviously, there's stereotypes, there's labels for a reason. And then I also like to roll my eyes. I'm a questioner. I always say, well, why? Why is that? So I'm excited to get your thoughts on some of these things and really demystify some of these stereotypes.

Dr. Katie 2:15

Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I love having this conversation. And that's why I am doing the work that I'm doing around generations, is because someone asked me about it in a leader's cohort three years ago. They were like, we're really struggling because we have five generations, and how do we how do we quote unquote fix it? And I'm like, it me being me, and I know you are very similar. That's why we love each other so much, is I'm not going to give a Google answer. Like, I want to go deeper than a search. I want to really dig in and do the research. So I ever since that day, I have been doing the research. I've been having the conversations, and now I'm really confident to stand on business with exactly what you said and what I believed was we overuse the generational labels. They're important, and we're going to talk about what shapes that. They're important, but they're only the beginning of the generational conversation.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Thank you for saying that and validating that we overuse them because I feel like we do as well. Again, I feel I don't know. Maybe we can talk about this, but I didn't even know anything about generations until I was labeled a millennial when I was in my early career and people it wasn't a good thing to be a millennial. And then I thought, wait a minute, growing up, why weren't we talking about generations? And then as well, I, you know, I don't I do think that they're overused, and I think that social media is obviously a driver of this overuse and this stereotype in a positive and a negative way that has then branched out into other forms of media. I can think about Vogue doing an article on why the skin aging is back and why millennial moms are excited or whatever, which again, one is not me. I'm not a mom, but also do whatever you want. I don't give a crap. You know, yeah.

Dr. Katie 4:25

Yeah. I, you know, it's so funny because the so the young man I was speaking to today, we didn't get into generations. I'm guessing he is a kind of an older Gen Z, probably younger millennial. I'm thinking kind of an older Gen Z, but it was really interesting because we were talking about it, we got into generational differences, and we were talking about my daughter turned 22 in February, and one of her sorty sisters sent her a note and said, Sorry, I've been so busy. I haven't been able to post your birthday on social media. And my daughter's like, I don't, I don't care about a social media birthday post, right? Like for her, for my daughter, it's more like a meaningful call or meaningful text or like that connection. But all generations are so different. And there's just this assumption that, you know, if you're not, if you're not following into this, you know, stereotype or this, like, sorry, I didn't didn't, you know, tag you in social media, or my gosh, that woman's not wearing skinny jeans. Well, you know what? Skinny jeans don't look good on all of us, so leave us alone, right? Totally.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah. And even that's like saying all brothers, just because they're part of one family are the same. That is just not true. I have nephews that are within the same five years of each other, and none of them are true. Some of them are more tactile, some of them are more creative expressively externally than the others. Some of them are more sports-driven, more money driven, etc. And that's that goes back to values. And I just the same, there's just the I think putting, and maybe you can talk to speak to this later too, but putting everybody into a generation. Yes, we can go through the same current events. Like I lived through the Oklahoma City bombing, 9-11, the, you know, some of the similar wars that my peers did, but I am very much more opposed to a lot of the trendy trends and the social media. And I am childless, which is very unusual for millennials. And I live in the Midwest, and you know, all I didn't get married until I was older, all these things. We are all different. And so it just it really gets me heated when we're all lumped into one. So um, anyways, I'm glad we're talking about this, especially in terms of career and leadership. So I wanted to hear from you in this time where, you know, there's frustrations around, you know, the differences and generations. Leaders talk around, you know, for people listening, they might think, well, what are the generations that we are talking about? You know, leaders talk about boomers, millennials, Gen Z, and that they are completely different species, just like we were discussing. And from your research and work with organizations, is it really, you know, that different? And if so, what are the key differences?

Dr. Katie 7:49

Yeah. Yeah. And it's so interesting because, like I said, labels are absolutely overused. You know, we come in with assumptions. And what's so interesting is in my research, I was talking to my father-in-law when I started this research, and he is just a brilliant mind. And he's a retired professor at a community college, and he said, Have you heard the quotes from Plato and Socrates? And I'm like, No. So I had to look it up. And I mean, it's essentially all the way back to those days. It was, you know, Plato and Socrates. I forget the I should have looked it up. I think it was Plato that was criticizing Socrates or vice versa. You know, this generation doesn't want to work, they only want the luxuries.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

And and oh, the word was all the way back then, like all the way back then.

Dr. Katie 8:43

And and so then I started doing more research. And I mean, you can see through the times that there are quotes throughout history of this happening, and so generational differences have always existed, there's always been that friction, but through my research, and frankly, through a whole lot of conversations, the gap is is so much deeper these days. And and in I think in in my opinion, is the the technology gap is causing it, the I mean, just the drastic difference in generations. And we talked about this when we talked about the speed of technology and the speed of adaptation. And you know, before it took, you know, 50 years for you know phones to get into everyone's houses, and now it takes you know 25 minutes before everyone knows the latest technology trend. And so that is making this gap bigger and bigger and bigger. But the the things that we hear, you know, everywhere, which is Gen Z doesn't want to work. That's BS. Millennials need constant praise. No, they don't, you know, boomers only want to retire. Not true. Like that's not the real problem in the workforce. That's not the the root of it all.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

I mean, so I guess what are the what are the major or like what are the major things that shape or a generation? I I've heard of some of them, like years, okay. And I don't know who picks the years. I don't know if it's like some committee somewhere, but also, and like I said, I know that there's some current events or events that shape, but what are the other things that divide the generations?

Dr. Katie 10:35

Yeah, it's so interesting because you know, you mentioned the Oklahoma city bombing. And so when we think about kind of these generational breaks, it's really major social and economic experiences. It's really what all generations, you know, it's that generation where you can say, remember where you were when. I was listening to a podcast yesterday, and it was like I guess kind of a measuring stick between Gen Zers are do you remember 9-11? Because there's a group of Gen Zers that don't. Like my nephew was actually born on 9-11, so he doesn't remember in the older. So that's interesting. So when we think about baby boomers, we typically think about post-war stability, and really what defines them is this long-term employment. So baby boomers really want to, they want loyalty from an organization, they want loyalty to an organization, they really want to retire with the some ceremony and the punch and cookies and the pocket watch, which is fascinating. Um, Gen X, and I I'm a Gen Xer, and so really what we saw in Gen X was a lot of corporate restructuring. We saw this pivot from loyalty from companies to loyalty to themselves. And so Gen Xers really started this like self-reliance. Like, I got to take care of myself. It's really interesting when we look at Gen Xers because they're really the latch key kids. We were the first ones that didn't have a mom, traditionally, a mom in the house that we came home to.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Okay.

Dr. Katie 12:17

And so we were the ones that came home and kind of took care of ourselves. We were the Gen Xers are really that first group of be home by the time the street lights were on. We we theoretically raised ourselves, some argument not very well.

unknown 12:33

Right, right.

Dr. Katie 12:34

And then millennials are really that 9-11. They came up through the Great Recession, they came up through this kind of overcorrection of you know, being too independent to being um it's so funny because I was speaking to a group and I'm screaming about how Gen Z needs, you know, to be protected and cared for. And then this millennial walks up and says, I love your message. Can you please throw millennials in there? Because our parents, the baby boomers and the older Gen Xers, they're not this like fight for your kid, they're like figure it out yourself. And so pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Yeah, don't say that anymore. Yeah, right, right. But it's that like, you know, we figured it out, you figured it out. Yeah. And so millennials get this stereotype of we need constant praise, we need constant attention. And it's like, yeah, no, we just want someone to care about us, right? We just which is an interesting dynamic that I never thought of until this woman said it to me. And I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, yes, millennials. We all here's the thing, forget the label. We all we all need it, right? Yeah, no one's asking for something that is totally completely off base. Totally. Um, and then Gen Z is, you know, they are technology immersion, like they do not know a day without technology in their hand. You know, obviously COVID is is shaping their experiences, but I think a lot of the challenges that we have with younger millennials and Gen Zers is that us older generations just have that technology gap. We have that real struggle that is just creating this this bigger gap in in everything. But we can go back and look at behaviors and in one important point, and then I'll I'll pause because I can talk about this for hours and hours. But what is so fascinating about generations is so let's take Gen Z as an example. Gen Z sees millennials as their older sibling, right? They're the ones that they were constantly fighting with millennials to get space, but they were never, they were the annoying little kid, right? So Gen Z are like, hey, millennials, we're cooler than you. It's like stop it. We're we got this, we deserve to be in the room, okay? And so there's this pressure between Gen Z team space. Gen Zers see Gen Xers as their parents. And traditionally, right, we see all the things our parents did wrong. And so Gen Zers are like, I'm gonna fix the mistakes that my parents made, I'm going to correct them and fix them. I'm gonna fix the Gen X generation. You can't say that anymore, mom. You can't behave like that, dad. Right. And then they see baby boomers as their grandparents, right? And so they're kind of replacing the baby boomers. So there's this love and care and feeding for them. It's this nostalgia and this retro, like record players and their stories and their history. It's it's cool, and we can see that with every generation. And so when we look at it in that format, we can see why the frictions are the way they are between generations.

Nostalgia Tech And Gen Alpha

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Yeah, I love hearing about all of these things just because I like learning about different characteristics of people, and yet you can everybody listening can pinpoint somebody that they know is in each one of these generations and say, Well, and this person I know is not exactly like that, you know? And that's the point of generations. They are not perfect, and like you said, everybody wants to feel another thing I've heard about millennials is that we have to feel special, or like we were told that we are special. Who doesn't want to feel special? You know, everybody wants to my mom is a baby boomer and she wants to feel special. Who doesn't? Everyone wants to feel seen. There's just certain human things. I also think when it comes to the technology piece, that it's not only the rapid speed, but the Gen Z and Gen Alpha. You know, I know that you and I have discussed that as Gen X and millennials, truly millennials, we were the last to live in the analog and text space. And even some Gen Xers had the analog and the text space, but a lot of them did not. They were not able to have computer labs in school or learn typing, or they learned typing, but on typewriters, and yeah, uh, which is not taught. I literally had this conversation yesterday that kids are still just picking and they are learning Canva and presentations and PowerPoint, but not learning how to type. Anyway, yeah, I don't have a child, I have no skin in that game. So I think that that is very interesting. I also want to point out that Gen Alpha, who is my youngest nieces and nephews, what I find fascinating, and you pointed to this in Gen Z with the nostalgia, because we all know if you've listened to this podcast or you followed any of my other social media, I'm the most nostalgic person you will ever meet. And I hold on to even with my neuro aesthetics, I hold on to things from the past. I store objects have stories, so I'm very tactile, very tangible, a tangible person, you know. I I'm still sick today, folks. So I'm my words are not there. But I the gen alphas are also leaning into nostalgia. I was just reading an article about Japan and how they oh I'm loving this. They are going back to the sticker book craze. Oh yes. Oh girl, we uh I could have a whole episode on it. Anyway, they have a sticker book craze and they're trading. And it's not only about the trading and being connected with friends, but it's about the collecting and it's about building worlds. So I didn't get why my little nieces and nephews, who are Gen Alpha, were oh god, and I still hate these, but the little plastic tiny, have you seen these little mini tiny object worlds that they it's it's crap, you know, that they are collecting. But they are collecting these and they're building their own worlds. And this comes from the VR world and the game world. And they grew up in a world where this is just I get my tablet as a reward and I'm immersed. So this is what they know. This is fantasy, and so they then take it into the tangible world and they build their own worlds. And I'm actually getting chills because if you think about what we did playing with Barbies and dolls, it's the exact same thing. We just didn't have the tech piece, the VR piece. So it kind of gives me hope that they can, they're just doing it backwards, right? They're getting the tech piece first and then they're getting the tangible world. So I actually, and I know we're gonna talk next week about AI and the and the future. And I have heard futurists talk about there is a big shift coming. So I can talk about that forever. I just wanted to point out that with Gen Alpha, they are I I think gonna have a shift in the tech piece as well.

Dr. Katie 20:39

And I think you it's so interesting because what I've been talking about lately is the younger generations, the the younger Gen Zers and the Gen Alphas actually have this healthy conversation or a healthy relationship with technology that some of us older generations don't have. Um, and I know people are gonna scream at their device as they're listening to this because people are like, they're on it too much. But like my daughter and her friends on the golf team, when they're traveling on long van trips, they will take coloring books. They will, and my I know, and my daughter will say, like, mom, you're on your screen too much. Like they're they're governing kind of our screen time, and so I think they have a healthier relationship with it than we do because we we don't fully understand it. We don't it it hasn't been our whole life, and so some of us, especially, and I I'm kind of that zenial, so I'm a younger millennial, like I'm four years away from being a millennial, depending on the spread you see. So I I had an Apple IIe, I had a computer in my living room. We had the dial up internet when I was in middle school and high school. It was clunky and messy, but I had some of that. I still learned to type on a typewriter. Shout out to Miss Sandlin, who was really mean to me when I looked at my fingers, but also had a computer lab and the computer cart being rolled in. So it's fascinating that we're we're seeing this shift. And as you were talking about gen alphas, yeah, when you think about it, so Gen Z or Would be their siblings, millennials would would be more of their their parents. And then the Gen X or so boy would be their grandparents. Hard to think about as my friends are having green kids. And I loved my sticker books. Like I think I still have a box of this. So I mean, what a fascinating and cool, like how cool that we're seeing that all come back into play, which I love. I mean, I think that's such a gift.

Motivation Needs Across Ages

SPEAKER_02 23:02

What's old is new again, which is, I mean, going back to Plato, it's I think been a theme of humans forever. Yeah. So let's get back into the, you know, we talk about the human-centeredness and to pivot more towards what we do as humans, which is work. And with work comes a lot of need for motivation. So what from your research? You've spent a lot of time researching this. And I know that you in your doctoral research, you've spent a lot of time researching motivation. So what do the different generations actually do differently when it comes to motivation, or what do they want that's different?

Dr. Katie 23:49

Yeah. And I think it goes back to exactly what you said. Uh, you know, we all want it. Like my mom, my mom wanted the, you know, maybe they didn't want trophies, but they wanted to be recognized. And I kind of tease because in my session that I do on inclusive leadership and acceptance, it's we all want to be picked to play kickball. We don't all want to play kickball, but we don't want to not get picked, right? We want to be involved. And so when I do these generations talks, I will have everyone in the room stand up and I will read out loud, you know, we we all want to feel capable at work. Sit down if that's not you, right? We all want to have control over our work. Sit down if that's not you. We all want to feel connected and appreciated at work. Sit down if that's not you. And I read all of these questions or statements, and typically the room is still standing. And, you know, what then I explain is here's where we, you know, take a right or left turn is the younger generations have the audacity to say out loud the things that we sat in our cubicles and complained about. They have the audacity to question things that we just paid our dues and and went through. And and so that's the the interesting component to this is what what we're seeing nowadays that people want are the same things that that us old people or older generations, we wanted those as well. They're they're they're expressed different, they look different. So, like when we talk about autonomy, which is that having control over our work from the autonomy, the older generations, they really wanted independence, they really wanted that like gain that title, gain that control, be able to take charge. Where the younger generations, when they think about autonomy at work, typically not all, they look at that more at flexibility, they look at that as being able to choose how they do things and choose, you know, what their work might might look like or what success might look like. When we think about relatedness, which is these connections and these communities, you know, the the older generations, it would look maybe more like being included in a in a conversation, being invited to the boardroom. I always hated an HR. Like there was this big thing back in the early HR days where HR has a seat at the table and it's like okay, okay. But that was that was relatedness back in my day, where uh relatedness in the younger workers looks more like belonging and acceptance, that difference that Brene Brown talks about, the difference between fitting in and belonging. Like I can come as my true authentic self and not have to be someone I'm not.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Right.

Dr. Katie 26:46

My generation, we never thought of that. But but those are the interesting things. And when we talk about competence, the ability to do our jobs, that's gonna look different too. I've been doing a lot of conversations about how the old school leadership theory, the way you know, the come in and pay your dues and move up and and do this and check this box. The younger generations, they're not here for that. Like they're learning in such a different way that I'm not devaluing higher ed. I love higher ed. As someone who loves the lifelong learning, I have totally bought into it. And younger generations, they're just learning differently. Like I love the the TikTok commercials. I hate TikTok. I have this love-hate relationship with it, but you know, they're learning things on TikTok. My husband, who you know, is is six years older than me, like you know, he before my son and I went out on the cruise, he's like, I'm gonna change the brakes in your Jeep. And I'm like, What? Did did you get a new life insurance on me? Like, why are you messing with my brakes? He was like, You can learn everything on YouTube, and he changed my brakes and it they worked beautifully. But the way we, you know, back in the good old days, we would have had to take a community class, or like it you couldn't just change the brakes in your in your car, right? And so gaining skills and how we do that has drastically changed as well. So we all still need quote unquote need the same things, but how we get those look drastically different.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah, absolutely. And speaking of drastically different uh leadership is uh different than it was uh well, hopefully, in the 1960s and 70s. You know, we do see some uh things that have stayed the same, unfortunately, but most leaders are trying to be different. Where do you see leaders in general struggling the most when it comes to generational differences?

Dr. Katie 29:00

Yeah. Well, and I think in in it's not unique to this point in time, but I think so often those of us in kind of the the older generations, the more experienced generations, we forget what it was like. We forget that we were young and dumb. We forget what it was like to be inexperienced, we forget, we forget what we, you know, when we sat in the chair and said, we'll never do it that way. And then spoiler alert, we are doing it that way. And and it's it's not our fault, just like it's not the younger generation's fault. It's common sense isn't common. Like we learn from our experiences, and so we build our common sense. And so I was listening to a podcast recently, and it it said, you know, the the younger generations are the sandpaper to my leadership. And I thought, what a great analogy, because it's in that sandpaper, it's in those struggles that we get that smoother edge. We build our leadership skills. And so instead of using the phrases of they don't want to work, they constantly need praise, they they have no loyalty. What we really need to ask ourselves is what do how can we give them better feedback? How can we create this career path for them? How can we create meaning and purpose? How can we be more transparent? But when we look at the old school leadership models, and it's funny because I say 60s, 70s, and 80s, but really think of 2000. You know, think of the I had someone recommend a golf book for my daughter, and I was it was about mindset, and I was reading it, and I'm like, yes, the theory behind the book is great, but we're talking about golfers from the 90s and early 2000s. My daughters never watched grow up to play golf. Like, let's talk about the tigers, let's talk about the Rory McElroys, let's talk about the the Corda sisters. For those of you golfers, you get it. Those of you that don't, but it's the new generation of golf. But we're talking about this what got us here. No, that's not that that command and control is not. And what I find is we get so frustrating that we're just we're yelling louder, the get off our lawn is getting louder instead of leaning into what really do they need and and uh understanding and and what we're seeing is we're not doing that, we're pushing back harder, which is what made us so mad when we were the youngest generation coming in. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

And I think it's totally true. As you've been talking, I've been trying to think of what has changed and things continue to change, you know. But when you said even a book from the early 2000s, I mean, my God, think of the girl boss era, yeah, that was 2015, 2016. And we know that that's not we have shed that and said no, even then lean in, no. You know, those were mid, well, I guess lean in was more like 2010, 2012, but the girl boss era was mid-teens. I don't know how you would say that 20 teens. And then you know, I've been thinking as you've been talking, I wonder if you know, Gen Z had more opportunity or they felt obviously COVID changed so much for so many. And I'm sure as they went through high school and college and got so much of their innocence ripped away from them, I can't even imagine and won't even try because I can't. But I'm sure that that helped them speak up. But uh even further back a little bit, I'm thinking of the Me Too movement.

Dr. Katie 33:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

And wondering if that, I mean, that really shook in a in a horrible way, but in a positive way, I think, for people in the workplace to say, to really examine how leadership needs to act, what needs to happen. And then, you know, that happened right before COVID. And then COVID happened and a lot of things were examined because I, you know, left my corporate job at the beginning of 2022. And yes, you know, I hadn't been in office for two years, but I can recount things that happened in 2019, 2018 that were still, you know, I wouldn't suggest as leaders for different generations, you know, the condescension to younger generations, you know, kit calling them kids, you know, these types just little things, but even big things. And obviously, as a leader, we talk about this a lot. It's the point is to grow, to admit, to grow and to to do better. But at the same time, it's just interesting to think about how that could have been a big, you know, pivot in our culture along with COVID. So I was just having that thought as you were speaking.

Dr. Katie 34:25

Well, and I will put in the show notes. So the video just came out for my disrupt HR Kansas City talk, and it was kind of all around what you just talked about, which is you know, the old school leadership is really sabotaging our organizations. And what's fascinating is, you know, the younger generations watch their parents grind and hustle and do all of these things. And, you know, when I was talking to the crowd, and I'm like, you know, us older generations, we couldn't take a vacation without working. You know, we would put the kids to bed and we would answer emails and we would, you know, when when devices came out, we were connected 24-7, and our kids are like, I'm not, I'm not doing that. I'm I'm not doing that. And you know, the the people of of kind of older generations that are so proud of a 70-hour work week, you know, there's there's lore in Kansas City that a a major, major, major employer in Kansas City, the CEO back in the 90s sent an email out and you know, with the, you know, I'm here at 6 a.m. Well, you know this organization very well, you know, so it's not really lore. I'm here at 6 a.m. and I'm here at 6 p.m. And I know the cars that are in the parking lot. And it's that, you know, if you're not working a 70-hour work week, what are you doing? And yeah, and the younger generations are like, no, thank you. Not gonna do it. Yeah. And and so it's just it's it's fascinating to think that the things that we hated in business that we're mad at the younger generations because they are standing as as the the kids like to say, they're standing on business and they're not gonna put up with it. They're just not gonna put up with it. And and I almost feel like we're mad because we're like, but we did put up with it. Why won't you, you know, why won't you do it too? Like pay pay your dues. No, they don't have to. We did it for them.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

And I'm sorry to interrupt. I just think of it as like I love it. You're starting, I don't care who you are, you're starting a cultural conversation and let's it's like the Me Too movement. I don't care who it is, this needed to happen. I'm glad that we're having this conversation. And everyone needs to have this conversation, no matter what, you know, if it hasn't happened in your business or if it has, everyone needs to have this conversation to make it a safer workplace. And it doesn't, yeah, don't chastise the people who are having who are speaking up. This is, you know, thank you for speaking up and saying something because you're trying to make this a better culture for all of us.

Dr. Katie 37:20

Well, and it's funny because as leaders, you know, sometimes as leaders, we're intimidated to be in the room with people that are smarter than us. And and I always say, if you're the smartest person in the room, change the room, right? You're in the wrong room if you know everything. And and I tell my kids all the time like they are so much wiser in their early 20s than I was. And it's one, you know, frankly, they got really good parents. Yes, but but it's their exposure, it's their experiences, it's it's the things that they've learned and adapted, and and that's something to be celebrated, not intimidated by. It's it's that in and the willingness for us older generations to to learn from them and their experiences and not to feel bad because we we don't know what we don't know, and and it's it's learning from them and and their stuff that's such a great gift for us.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Could not agree more. And speaking of, I love the advice, and that's what my dad always told me as well was surround yourself with people who are smarter than you. Yeah, it'll only make you look better and it'll make your job easier. So, what are some other points and practical things that you would tell a leader that they could do today to bridge the generation, the generational gaps on their teams?

Dr. Katie 38:48

Yeah. Well, I think it goes back to the to the beginning of the conversation, which is stop, stop the assumptions, stop the stereotyping, you know, ask the questions of all generations, not just the youngest generations. Like we've talked about in previous podcasts. You know, what does success mean to you? What motivates you? You know, what do you what do you need? And that definition is going to be different no matter the age, no matter the background. You know, I have a a great girlfriend who's a couple years older than me who made the choice not to have kids. And people make assumptions on, you know, why she decided not to have kids. And, you know, it's it's we we do this. Put put labels in wherever you want. Like we make all of these assumptions on people, and we need to stop and we need to ask those questions. We need to have more conversations and more clarity because that uncertainty and those generalizations and those we meet one person of insert label here, and we assume every generation. You know, I I cringe when people are like, you know, from a from a female standpoint, Katie, what do women want? And I'm like, oh no, no, no, no. I can give you a list right now of 37 women that do not want me to speak for them. Like we're all so different. And so we've got to have those conversations. And then I think that speaks to both of our work is we've got to develop leaders in the middle. We got to develop those up-and-coming leaders, we got to develop those middle managers, we got to really lean into that because really most of that friction happens right there in the middle. And when you look at what is exploding in the middle, is we have that emerging leaders, we have those millennials who are starting to come into really senior leadership control ish, you know, opportunities, which is exciting, but they haven't had the training and support because figure it out, right? And then you have those younger Gen Xers that are starting to move into really those executive roles that have also never had that training experience. And so we're seeing this massive friction happening in that middle manager's role, and that's where we're seeing from all of these surveys and all of this feedback, Gallup and and Harvard Business Review, and everyone is saying people are leaving because of their managers, they're leaving because they don't feel connected to an organization, they're not inspired by the organization, they don't feel cared about. And so what's fascinating is I did my research in 2017. I came back around and did my research back again in 22, 23. And what we're finding is this double down of for people to feel motivated and connected to an organization, it's more important now than ever for them to feel cared about, for them to feel this sense of belonging, for them to feel competent, to have the skills and tools to do their job, and then to have the autonomy and trust. So, what we believed before, like you said, you left. We knew it was there before COVID, but after COVID, it's this like not even double down. It's like 10 toes down, not even wavering. It's more important than ever that we care about and provide this opportunity for our employees. Gen Z just knows that there's more opportunities out there, and if not, they're gonna create them. Where Gen Xers were like terrified. I have so many friends that are like, I've got to get out of this place, but also I'm 55 years old and who's gonna hire me? And Gen Zers like, I don't give a shit who's gonna hire me, I'll figure it out. Yeah, it's this crazy dichotomy that we're we're in right now.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

I wish that the Gen Xers and boomers who are still working would not think that way. I've always hated that because I'm always about hate anything is possible. And I hope that the Gen Z and Gen Alphas rough run up rub off on yeah, to that attitude, because I think that that is a positive attitude to have. And if there's one thing that you wish leaders understood about generational differences, what would it be? Just one big thing that they could walk away with.

Dr. Katie 43:27

Yeah, I think it's really that you know, all generations it there is generational differences, they are, but that's not your biggest organization organizational problem. It's really the leadership. It's that, you know, no matter the generation, no matter the background, no matter the common sense, we've got to create clarity, trust, and opportunity for growth in our organizations. That's what we need. And so it doesn't matter the label, we need that, but it's different for everyone. And so as leaders, we got to understand what that truly is.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

100%. I absolutely agree. I've learned so much from you, as I usually do. Who knew that I was gonna be so interested in this conversation? I knew that I would because it's your research, but as much as I hate generational discussions, this was very eye-opening and I liked it way more than I thought. And yeah, we just need to all stop assuming everything about people and actually ask people questions. And get to the human part again. Yeah.

Listener Shoutouts And Next Week

Dr. Katie 44:36

Yeah. Well, and that's what I love because I know when we talked about doing generations and you're like, I'll do it because you're excited for it and you love it. But it, but that's exactly the conversations I want to have is let's let's get away from the old conversations we had. Let's get away from the traditional things that divide us and let's bring us together, which we have to talk about bringing us together because this podcast continues to bring us together because we have more people from around the world and the country. Really? Yes. I had to look up a couple of these locations. Sussex inlet in north south Wales, which is kind of a London area. So shout out to them. Sayville, New York. Um Poplar Tower Hamlets. So South Wales is not London, but Poplar, Poplar Tower Hamlets. That's the one I looked up. Those that is that is more London. And then more from Ashburn. Whoever's in Ashburn that's talking about us, thank you. Yeah, and Boise, Idaho, whoever's there that shared the podcast last week. That's amazing. More there. So, and what's cool about this Portland, Oregon, Springfield, Massachusetts, Atlanta, Georgia. What's cool about that, it just no matter where you are in the world, right? We're we're all experiencing these different cultural moments and different experiences. And I know you have friends all around the world. I do too. I have a good friend who's French, but he now lives in Geneva, and he'll send me random things that is like, here's how we're seeing things around the world today. How are you guys seeing it? It allows for these neat conversations, I think, to happen.

SPEAKER_02 46:27

Absolutely. And like we discuss, we are all humans first, and we all go through similar things, even though culturally we might have variations. So I love that we're all connected. And that is a positive of technology. There are lots of positives, some negatives, and the hope is that the younger generations and our generations, I'm not gonna put everything onto somebody else. I'm gonna take responsibility as well and use technology for better than for the negative in this world.

Dr. Katie 47:06

So yeah, yeah. So next week's podcast, you teasted in some of the questions, we're gonna talk about kind of these AI-proof toolkits. So, what are the skills that we need, no matter you know, whether there's robots in our office, no matter what? Like there are skills out there that are AI proof. And so while we celebrate AI as a tool, we also want to lean into the skills that we all have that no, we can never be replaced by a machine.

SPEAKER_02 47:37

Yes, this has been requested. And I know a lot of people love AI, don't love AI, but no matter what you believe, we all need to have AI-proof skills. And we are going to give you a full toolkit of what we will all need and what we know that futurists are talking about right now. And we're excited.

Dr. Katie 48:00

Yeah, yeah, it's gonna be a great conversation. Well, we are so thrilled for anyone who joined us today. We I cannot wait to hear people's feedback or aha moments or challenge us, right? Like, I don't agree with that. I was I was a zenial and I hated sticker books or whatever. Like, challenge us. We want to hear it.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

I will have an argument.

Dr. Katie 48:26

Oh my gosh. Well, thank you everyone for joining us on this week's Path to Leadership. Continue to share the podcast. We're so appreciative. Give us feedback, shoot us notes, recommendations for future topics. We can't wait to hear it. And we'll talk to you next time on the Path to Leadership. Bye, everyone. Bye.