How Giving A Damn Builds Better Companies with Justin Ricklefs

What if the real performance hack is deceptively simple: give a damn. We sit down with Justin, author of Give a Damn, to unpack a leadership framework that trades fear-based pressure for human-centered excellence—and proves that care and commerce not only coexist, they compound.

Justin takes us from sports business and sales rooms to noisy production floors to reveal where culture is won or lost: in small, consistent choices. We walk through the four catalysts—curiosity, clarity, compassion, and consistency—and hear how each one turns values into results. Curiosity opens the lens so leaders decide with context, not ego. Compassion becomes empathy in action, addressing issues directly and respectfully. Clarity removes guesswork by naming standards and success signals. Consistency keeps the fire burning, building trust day after day instead of relying on one-off hype.

The stories land hard and practical. A fear-fueled “mandatory meeting” shows how shame torches engagement. A factory-wide name effort demonstrates how simple recognition boosts retention in male-dominated, high-churn environments. We dig into why standards aren’t micromanagement, how to give teams shared language for the “unsaid” of great work, and what it means to build a brand heartbeat that beats from the inside out—aligning strategy, culture, and storytelling so growth feels natural, not forced.

You’ll leave with tools you can use today: questions that spark real listening, phrases that set kind boundaries, and a vivid metaphor—the match—that reminds leaders they carry power to scorch or to light the way. If you’ve been told you must choose between people and profit, this conversation will change your mind and your playbook. Enjoy the episode, then share it with the leader who needs a better way. And if it resonates, subscribe, leave a review, and pass it along to someone building a team that deserves to thrive.

Buy Justin's book and connect:  https://www.justinricklefs.com/

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Order Dr. Katie's books: 

• 52 Weeks of LEADERship:  https://shop.ingramspark.com/b/084?params=afiG9oMq4YoXnvxsSD9PDjTrezQvZd6A7vBE1T2yaGz
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Theme music by Emma Jo https://emmajo.rocks/

Transcript

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Welcomes And Global Shoutouts

Dr. Katie 0:32

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Path to Leadership. I'm Dr. Katie and I'm Rhonda Jolene. And we are so thrilled to have you. Whether you're new to the podcast, I know we have a special guest, so we're probably going to have some new listeners, don't you think, Rhonda?

Rhonda Jolyean 0:48

Oh, I hope so. But you were telling me shortly before the podcast started that we already need to shout out a couple more places in Europe.

Dr. Katie 0:58

Yes. I seriously, I wish they would tell us who they are because I know this we do some video, but it's not people don't always see the video. But before I jumped on I was sharing with my daughter, we have our new locations this week are Malvern, Pennsylvania, Santa Clara, California, Milan. Who was at the Olympics and decided they need to jump on, right? And Paris, France. Oh, my favorite place in the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So and then we have Lithuania and Sweden who've jumped in the mix. Um, Finland, Netherlands, like, welcome to all the countries. We we said we were gonna learn different languages. I just have Gutentag. So Gutentag, Germany. Belgiumese. Well, so let's jump in because we have an amazing guest, someone who I've had an opportunity to meet a couple of times. But Rhonda, this is your first connection with him. So Justin, welcome to the podcast.

Justin Ricklefs 2:06

Hey, thanks. It's good to be with you all. And yeah, maybe as you're running through that list of European countries, it might be our daughter. Our our second oldest daughter is studying abroad in Italy, and she is, and they use studying abroad in air quotes because she basically just sort of goes Monday through Thursday in Florence, and then the second Thursday ends, they get on a train to somewhere awesome. So it could have been her and her friends hopping around Europe. But regardless, it's really cool to hear y'all's influence growing overseas. That's really awesome. But I'm grateful to be here this morning

Meet Justin And His Story

Justin Ricklefs 2:35

and yeah, really appreciate the opportunity.

Dr. Katie 2:38

Yeah. Well, we are so, so thrilled to have you. And we're gonna talk all about your exciting new book that just came out and all of that. But before we jump in, if you could tell us a little bit about ourselves yourself, like what do you do, who you are, all that good stuff.

Justin Ricklefs 2:54

Oh boy, yeah, Dr. Katie, it's a pleasure to have this conversation with you. And you know, I always love kind of asking the very high-level what's your story question. So it feels interesting to get it reversed on me. I grew up in Kansas City. My wife and I both went to high school together. I like to say that I we were high school sweethearts, she tells a slightly different version of the same story. We ended up getting married. We've got five kids, four daughters, one son, ranging from 22 down to 14. And yeah, I had a you know career growing up in kind of the sales side of things with two really amazing organizations and the sports landscapes. I worked for a company called Learfield for about five years, and then I worked for the Chiefs before they were Super Bowl champions for eight seasons and a couple other stops along the way. But long and short, in 2017, actually one month before they drafted number 15 from Texas Tech, quit the Chiefs to start our agency. It's a brand agency called Guild Collective, where we're almost a decade in, which is like some days it feels like a newborn, and some days it feels like sophisticated, you know, wise scholar. And most days it's in between, right? But yeah, so the business is called Guild Collective, and we're helping brands find their heartbeat, which we can talk about if if we get there. But essentially, it's how do we how do we foster human connectivity from a brand standpoint, and that leads to growth. And so, yeah, long and short, it's a really amazing group. We're based in Kansas City, helping clients find their heartbeat. And yeah, grateful to explore some of that stuff with you guys today.

Rhonda Jolyean 4:38

Cool. Oh, I love that tagline, if you will. That's that's

From Sports Biz To Guild Collective

Rhonda Jolyean 4:42

amazing. And Katie and I talk a lot about human-centered design and empathy-led leadership. And I know that that is something that your book is really trying to drive home. So, can you tell us a little bit about? I mean, that's why you're here. You wrote a book, which congratulations. That is something that a lot of people aspire to and don't actually do. So tell us about your book and what spurred you in wanting to write that.

Justin Ricklefs 5:11

Yeah, no, it's a great question. And it's got gosh, it was such honestly a really mysterious and kind of magical process and also a really tenacious kind of pain in the ass process. Both were true. And the, you know, I'd say this book, the book is called Give a Damn. That's the name, that's the title. And then the subtitle is The Catalyst for Carrying Companies. And and really, I mean, it took, let's call it a year, okay, to like actually do the work. But but this has been a decades-long brewing of sorts where I, as I sat with the concept in the framing, I traced it all the way back to my very first boss at Learfield Sports, and it's a gentleman named Clyde Lear. And he's now sold the business and and he's in his wisdom era, I call it. But his fingerprints were all over this book throughout. And he didn't say give a damn. He used a different phrase, but he infused that culture with care from the beginning. And I didn't have language for that at the time, but I but as an employee, I experienced his frame the in the way the book's framed is curiosity, care, compassion, and clarity. I'm sorry, curiosity, clarity, compassion, and

Why Write “Give A Damn”

Speaker 2 6:28

consistency. Deliberty, deliberately change from care to compassion because as you're talking about with empathy, compassion is empathy in action. It's it's taking action on someone's behalf with empathy as that foundation. So long and short, the the book had been brewing for a long time. And I didn't quite know how to jump into that, you know, that river, so to speak, of writing a book. Because it I think everybody has a book in them. Um, Dr. Katie, you've you've walked this road and it's a it's a really it's it's a real it's it's hard to put words to it, it's a really meaningful experience. And of course, I'd love a bunch of people to read it. That would be great. But more than that, it's like, man, it would just, it was a really sadest, it almost felt like starting the business. It was kind of those same types of experiences, which was like, oh, bringing something from nothing to life and putting my fingerprints on it and and my voice to it. Like it, it just that in and of itself was really meaningful. But the thesis underneath all of that is can care become a competitive advantage? That was kind of this question that was that was banging around in my brain and body the whole time, which is like, yeah, there's there's loads of evidence that care is depleted in the workforce. There's where we don't have an we don't over-index in care as like a general corporate statement. And and the and the brands that and leaders, the bosses and brands are kind of how I frame it up. The bosses and brands that are that are injecting care into their business are winning. And it's this really interesting. I think some of the old school thought of like, well, you either have to care about only money or you have to care about only your people. And like care is this soft skill that you know isn't rewarded on your bottom line. I was just like, huh, I'm not the first one to talk about this stuff. But I'm like, is that even true? And and Chick-fil-A owner operator one time told me told our whole team, he said, this line that Truett Cathy, who's the founder of Chick-fil-A, used to always say is care and commerce can coexist. And it's and like that's the for me, the the kind of the curiosity string I kept pulling on, which is like, it's not an either-or thing. It's not like be kind or make money. It's like these two things are are both and and if and if companies and ultimately, therefore the leaders, which I know is the work you guys do, if the leaders are rooted in care or the way we say it, give a damn, you do grow your business. It does go better. Your people are happier, they are more engaged, they do stay longer, you do make more money, your clients are happier, all that stuff is this like really cool compounding circle. So I I don't know if I answered your question, but I went on a long tangent. Yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean 9:14

Yo, you definitely did. Yeah.

Speaker 2 9:16

Okay.

Dr. Katie 9:16

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think it's great. And I want to get into like the the meat of the book and the message. But before we do that, you said something which made me think about why I wrote my book, which was, you know, early in my career, and even still, I'm 50, I still make mistakes. Like the messiness we we do in the name of great leadership. And then we realized, oh, that should not have looked that way. 100%.

Care And Commerce Can Coexist

Dr. Katie 9:43

So, so and then well, I love the the book, give a damn. Like I love the name of someone whose book is you might be an asshole, like period. Love it. And then the tagline having catalyst in there, I feel like because my company's catalyst development, I feel like we we have some synergy there.

Speaker 3 10:02

100%.

Dr. Katie 10:02

100%. I I would love to, you know, the work you do at Guild, and and I I I do at the end want to get to back to some of the work you do at Guild, but just wondering like what was that pivotal moment in your career when you realized that, you know, it's not about control or hustle and and all of those things. Like the I just did a talk recently, like the old school leadership theory, the screaming inspiration from the stage. Like we got to get past that and like do the work. And it feels like this book is talking about doing that work.

Speaker 2 10:35

Yeah, I'm like, I'm like read, I don't think this is a thing anymore, but I'm retweeting all of your messages and re-exiting them. But it's like, yeah, that's it. Like the the conversations and and really the what came to mind as you said that is you know, every good story has like a protagonist and an antagonist. And so they're not named in the book specifically, but there is a scene that that I share in the book, which was, and I've been the antagonist, by the way, a lot. And I share some of those stories in the book. So I'm I'm not writing this from a place of arrival by any means. I'm very much to use y'all's language, I'm on the path, and I'm trying to stay on the damn path. And this book was a process for me to try to stay on the path and and not harm people to the extent that I can. And when I do harm people, I have the have the awareness and the courage to say I'm sorry and try again. So that's the big caveat. But the the antagonist story in the book is we got an email, and and by we I mean our sales team. So there's I think there were six of us, maybe eight. And the title of the email said mandatory meeting in 15 minutes from the boss. And and so in those 14 minutes, we did what colleagues do in those situations. You start chit-chat, gossip, figuring it out, closed doors, whispers, what the hell's going on, all that, right? All that stuff's happening. Are we all getting fired? What happens? Right? And so we at at the 15-minute mark, we march, you know, we are compliant and we march down to where we're told to sit. We take our seats. The boss comes in a couple minutes late to the to, I'm not saying genders, to his or her mandatory meeting, sits at the head of the table, and we realize HR is in the room. And we're like, huh. Huh. This is the last time we all get to work together, y'all. Right? That's kind of what's going on. And so boss sits down and jumps into the to the to the old very old, very much, and again, not that it's never gonna happen again to someone else, but very old school approach of you all are bad, you've missed the sales goal, this is unacceptable, and use this line that kind of you know still kind of gives me the chills, but not in a good way, which is you this person said, You

The Antagonist Meeting Story

Speaker 2 12:59

are an embarrassment to the owner. Yeah, and it's like my first instinct was like BS, not true. And then and then the very second kind of wave that came in was like, oh, maybe it is true. And maybe I am an embarrassment, maybe I am terrible, and maybe I do suck at this job, and maybe maybe we're all getting fired, right? And the the crazy part was like it was in the it was like a group burn. It wasn't just this individual, like it was just like like napalm in the conference room. So, all that to say, I contrast that experience with Clyde, actually, in the book. And Clyde had plenty of his own faults, but I I I I pit him as the protagonist in the story, which is he did care, he did give a damn, he did have curiosity and compassion and clarity, and he did it over the long period of time. Every my the argument is everybody can do that for a for a moment or a meeting. But the leaders like like y'all, who are catalysts for change, do this over the long haul. They believe in the long game, they believe in abundance, they believe in betterment, they believe in growth. They they aren't so like this moment in time is the only thing that matters. And so, therefore, you can get some groundedness to have healthier responses because the the truth is in the antagonist story, we were missing the mark. We did not hit our sales goal, is true. Like the performance wasn't where the expectations were, but that could have been a whole reframe of a conversation of like, hey, y'all, deep breath. We got some work to do. How can I support? What's broken? Where are we effed up? Like, what do we need to redo differently in our sales proposal? Whatever. Like, we could have had all of that healthy, productive, necessary performance conversation, but instead everybody bowed up instantly with like, F you, I don't trust you, right? Yeah, and so anyway, I uh the the in that in the framing of the stories is me sharing, I'm on the path too. And there's been so many times that I've I haven't done that exact thing, but I've done stupid stuff that's like, ooh, I fired somebody once and she had no idea it was coming. Because all I'd ever told her was all this nice, uh, you're doing great. And it's like, you weren't doing great. Cause I don't have the courage to tell you the truth. So anyway, I share some of those stories too, because it's like, I'm I'm trying to figure this damn thing out. We're in the trenches every day in this small business, trying to figure out how to do it in a way where care and commerce can coexist.

Rhonda Jolyean 15:36

Right. Yeah. Well, and Katie and I talk a lot about how, you know, you don't become a different person, a different human being when you become a leader instantaneously. Like you have to remember who you were when you were part of a team and you're still part of that team and how you would want to be treated, which is I really like how you express compassion and that it's, you know, empathy and action. And, you know, can you explain to us the other pieces of your each catalyst as you call that? Because I think that it's really important for our audience to think about compassion and that definition. But can you kind of define each of those catalysts that's part of your definition?

Speaker 2 16:21

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I and and because at least my leadership has been messy. Yeah, I I didn't want, I didn't want to have this perfectly manicured framework, so to speak, of like, hey, here's the perfect predicted path to make your leadership amazing. Instead, I I centered everything, and and and actually it was we, Jason Muir was he's our art director at Guild, and he just he visualized my words in such a beautiful way, and it was equally as important. But he be he built this, it's almost like a campfire model,

Reframing Performance With Care

Speaker 2 16:57

and we call it the give a damn fire starter framework. And the framework is the base let the base layer is there are free fuel sources that we all have, effort and attitude. Nobody they're they're unpaid, right? Like they're not you don't have to have a certain skill, you don't have to have a certain degree, you don't have to have to have a certain title. We can all bring effort and attitude to all of our encounters. And that doesn't, that's not like a are you extra or introverted. That's not it's not that conversation. It's it's do you bring yourself to each situation with effort and and an attitude of abundance and thinking that something can be better, right? So those are kind of the first two fuel sources. And then the the the the you know the logs on the fire, so to speak, are the first one's clear, uh, I'm sorry, the first one's curiosity. And I have just blown this so often when you just roll into a meeting with a colleague or a client or whatever, and you just assume you know the full story. And so you just start talking about your perspective and point of view, and you've come to this conclusion. And then somebody's like, Cool, uh, but like, did you see this part of this the beach ball over here or this whole side of the globe that you didn't even know existed? Like they're listening to the podcast on Lithuania, right? And and I'm like, ah, damn. No, actually, I didn't even think about that. Not one time. And Kent Kent Lambers, who's a professional mentor of mine, he runs a he's a CEO of a big manufacturing company in Topeka, Kansas. But he says, you know, in my career, I've never one time regretted asking for the perspective of another on our team. Never once. Never once regretted asking for someone else's perspective. He's like, now, do I do what they would I have to ultimately make the call in his particular case? But that curiosity informs and colors and gives contrast and gives perspective to choice. And ultimately, as leaders, we we we do have to make some tough calls. But when they're informed and infused with others' perspectives, it always is helpful more helpful. So that's number that's number one. The second is compassion, Rhonda. To your point, there's this author and thinker I really like, his name's Arthur Brooks, and he

The Four Catalysts Overview

Speaker 2 19:17

he he wrote a book with Oprah, which I was like, damn, that's pretty dope. But he talks about the distinction between empathy and compassion. And and he talks about compassion is kind of that next wave that comes in that that puts empathy in action. And so I credit him in the book, but he has this quote he says, compassion is hard as flint. He's like, it's not easy, compassion is not easy, like to take a compassionate stance towards someone is hard work, like to love a child, to love a partner, to be friend of colleague. Like it's way easier to drift towards apathy and don't give a shit, right? I don't care. Don't care. Compassion is really hard work, and so that's number two. The third, which was a struggle for me to write, because it because it just brought up all this crap that I'm in process on, which is clarity. And you know, Brene Brown's money quote, which is clear as kind. And and I just, you know, especially as you're kind of in this like visionary state, or you're the future thinker of the business, or you're trying to grow the thing, or like lead the team on the trail. It's so easy to be like, well, I don't understand why aren't all these people aren't like coming along fast. And and as I sat with my own style and substance, it was like, well, part of it's because you're not very clear, bro. And so maybe, and again, and those are some of the examples I shared of like, you know, my avoidance of hard conversations or my withholding of performance-related things. And so I'm very much in process on the clarity part because I do think it's imperative to be clear, because then especially, you know, when people have clarity, they then you can have honest conversations about performance, but or gaps or struggles or whatever. But if if there's this lofty ideal that's not actually defined, and people don't actually know what the expectations are from the boss or whoever, then there's that gap is just filled with frustration from the leader side and and insecurity and guessing from the team member side, right? And and so I just I trace back into like, oh my gosh, like the

Curiosity In Practice

Speaker 2 21:42

best bosses I ever had were like Laird Veach, who's now the athletic director at Mizzou. He was so precise. He wasn't micromanage-e by any means, but he gave me clarity on what he cared about. And that was it was a gift, right? Because I'm like, oh, I know what Laird wants here, like I know how to behave here. I know how I know I need to stand when the client walks into the room and shake his or her hand as opposed to sitting there passively. Like he named his standards, and so I knew what to expect.

Speaker 3 22:07

Nice.

Speaker 2 22:08

And then and then the fourth one is consistency, and that's the part where it's the the phrase that I've used, I've found myself using a lot is fire takes forever to build. Like if you build an actual beautiful campfire, it takes forever. Like you gotta like tend to it, you gotta like nurture it, and you gotta blow on it, you gotta like throw more leaves on it, you gotta do some weird. Stuff to keep it going. And then once it's going, you can't just walk away. You have to keep showing up and you have to keep tending and you have to keep gathering people around it. And so the consistency part are that chunk of the book is full of stories about how to keep showing up and keep getting back up, keep saying sorry. Because we do, we screw at least I do. I screw it up a lot. And it's like, hey, I wasn't very curious. I'm sorry. Can I have another chance? Hey, I wasn't very clear here. Let me try again. And so that consistency piece of like, you know, and I think of our mutual friend Corey Shears' work, like trust, trust is built over a long haul and it's broken in seconds. But the people that we all love to follow have built something that is trustworthy and you believe. And so that anyway, I'm getting long-winded, but that consistency piece is like, yeah, cool. You're curious one time, great. Were you curious twice? Were you curious every day? Were you curious for a decade? And so that belief that, like, over the long haul, that's where you start to separate your culture because culture is an outcome. It's not something you can like, you know, put build a committee and get enough pizza parties to like build cool culture. It's like it's built over this long haul of people like, are you sure you actually care for me? Are you actually gonna give a shit about you know all this stuff? So anyway.

Dr. Katie 23:54

Yeah. Oh, I love it. I love it. There's so many nuggets in there that I feel like Rhonda and I talk about all the time. Like it's so funny when you're talking about clarity. I feel like that's been the last three podcasts we've talked about because it is such a gift to be clear and for people to understand what success looks like in the organization and how to do it. And I was even thinking as you were talking, I I am so in love with Gen Z and actually had a millennial come and say, Can you throw this? Can you can you say millennial when you talk about Gen Z too? Because I feel like you're waving a flag for Gen Z and you're forgetting us. And it's but I think about the younger generations and I think about the things they just don't know. Like we forget that we were young and dumb and inexperienced once. And I feel like this framework helps leaders nurture them and support them and get set

Compassion As Empathy In Action

Dr. Katie 24:47

them up for success.

Speaker 2 24:49

Yeah, my gosh, yes. And and I'm reminded of Will Gudera's unreasonable hospitality book. I don't know if you guys have read that yet. Oh, yeah. But okay, so he's like talking about running this, you know, very fine dining restaurant in New York City. And I think at least people who who are avoidant of hard conversations like myself, they like he just has this really beautiful, drama-free way of addressing things. And and the example was, yeah, Gin Z, new person rolls in, and Will just looked at him and he's like, hey man, we don't wear wrinkled shirts here. Like you go home and iron your shirt.

unknown 25:28

Yeah.

Speaker 2 25:28

It's like, oh, okay. As opposed to like, oh damn, like that guy freaking has an iron shirt or his wrinkled shirt, and there's all this drama that exists as opposed to just talking to the guy, hey, dude, go change your shirt. And at least for me, that those types of things are something if they're not now. Again, if it if Will was like hopscotching with like, oh, sometimes I'm gonna pick on that person, sometimes I'm not, that's that's not consistent. But the clarity of like, hey, at this place we don't wear wrinkled shirts. It's like you already knew that, it's in the handbook, whatever else. But like, it's just the naming of the expectation and the standard. And I and that's like, oh, I've got work to do on that because we do, as leaders, you do have picky ways you want stuff done that aren't micromanaging, they're just specific. And if you don't name your specifics, then you get pissed at people for not doing it. They're like, well, what you never told me.

Rhonda Jolyean 26:19

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think in that statement, you just clarified something that is huge in just you're giving, and this comes from your marketing background, I can tell. You're giving verbiage to people around the unsaid qualities and qualifications that leaders need and that are not spoken about. And that's something that is so important for people when you can't really learn things, or we don't teach people things in leadership.

Clarity Is Kindness

Rhonda Jolyean 26:52

You are giving verbiage to people, which is so important. And you're also giving them a very loose framework, as you said, for being able to grasp onto these solutions. And to when you name things in your culture or the things that you want to have done in a certain way, like you gave that example about the leader who said, you know, you need to stand up and shake people's hands, the expectations and then that alignment for your team, that is very important than and more important than just having a loosey-goosey, well, we're gonna have a very inconsistent work environment. And so I think just yeah, we we underestimate the value of giving verbiage to people.

Speaker 2 27:40

Yes, my gosh, yes. And I 100% wrong. And I, you know, I'm reminded when I was at the Chiefs, I was I didn't work super close with the football side, I was on the sales group, but on occasion you'd interact with Coach Reed or a player at an event or whatever. And and one of the communications guys, when we were about we were gonna have an event where Coach Reed was gonna speak to our clients, he was like, hey, just a heads up, don't lean on a door in front of coach. Like, don't like kind of slouch on a wall or a door. And I was like, I don't think I would have done that, but but but why? And he's like, Coach doesn't like it. Like he wants you to be upright and be present and be physically, you know, sturdy, not like slouching or leaning. And I was like, okay, I know now, right? Like it was really kind, and and also what happened in that moment, it was like it just signaled to me, like, oh, like he he it's a it's a specific system, and that's part of the reason they have success is like those things matter, and now I know what matters to him. And I I learned then, and and I, you know, I don't think about that every day by any means, but but sometimes if a client's in our office and I'm like tempted to be like lazy, you know, I'm like, no, coach, coach Reed would have me stand up straight, right? Yeah, and so anyway, no, just some of those types of things, like a leader has a has an opportunity to help make someone's experience better by being clear. And and if you're not clear, you're you're being unkind.

Dr. Katie 29:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so interesting because Rhonda and I talk about this all the time. And I've heard you're on a couple of podcasts as you're kind of making the circuit for the the book talking about soft skills and everyone calls them something different, leadership skills, soft skills. I call them career and power skills. Um love that. But you know, I just when you think about today's workforce and you think about the work we all do. I do a lot of work in male-dominated logistics. Like I'm so lucky because I get to talk to forklift drivers about their feelings. Um and it's it's so cool to have like the guys in a safety vest and a hard hat talking about their feelings. And the work that Rhonda does is is all of that stuff too, like talking about the beauty and things and the the tangible and the art and and and doing that type of work. And so I I wonder with the the your give a damn and and the catalyst, what are you seeing in today's workplace? How it's evolving. Feels like it's it's becoming more normal to give a damn, hopefully.

Speaker 2 30:15

I hope so. I hope so, yeah. I but in your forklift conversation instantly made me think of we've we've got a client in the on the on the guild team that we've had for many, many years, and they're a they're a multi-facility nationwide production company. And they've got, I think last count was that I heard is like 11,500 employees or so, like tons of employees. Most are production level, male down, you know, to kind of like

Consistency And Building Trust

Speaker 2 30:44

your point on the forklift side. And they did this big, fancy, massive employee opinion survey. And it's really beautiful, it was a beautiful move by leadership to connect because they're aware of like, hey, there's this gap between quote unquote management and then they a long time ago they literally used to call them like hourly employees. And they don't do that anymore, they don't call them that anymore. But this part of the part of the move by leadership was to be really curious about the experience of this really vital group who makes the thing happen that they do. And anyway, I'll I'll spare you the details, but they they hire this big fancy consulting firm from Chicago, and they run this whole employee opinion survey thing, which is again really beautiful and a brave move by them. But the the this distillation of the findings get to the point of your question, Katie, which were the number one thing that this group wanted was for their supervisor to know their first name. Don't call, don't call, don't call me bro, don't call me hey, don't call me dude, don't call me ma'am, don't call me you, right? Like, know my damn name. Like, call me Rhonda, call me Katie, call me Brooke, call me Rachel, call me Justin, whatever. Call me by my name. You spent four million bucks or whatever to learn that, which the but they but the beauty is they did, they changed their behaviors. And so, in a really vulnerable move, the supervisors were like, hey, I actually don't know all of your names. I'm sorry, but for a little bit of time, it's kind of like high school football practice. Will you put tape on your helmet that just says your name? Literally, they did. And it was like, okay, every time I see you now, I can look at you and I can visibly, it's too crazy of a place to wear a name tag, but like I can call you, I can see your name on your red helmet that says Ronda. Got it, I'll call you around. So anyway, uh Katie, I think it's but uh it's like and I can't share the specifics because it's their story, but they are just the absolutely crushing their competition on staffing levels right now. And it's a very visible brand, a lot of stuff that's at stake, and they've got their competitive set like begging people to come work at these places. And meanwhile, this this group is like, no, no, no, like this this is a place of generative growth and human connection, and people that feel seen and heard and known and understood. And guess what? When they feel those things, they work hard and they care and they show up and they pay attention to the details, and they don't leave when stuff gets hard. You can say shit.

Dr. Katie 33:18

It's okay. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 33:24

Anyway, yeah, it's like changing and it's changing, you know, not everybody's embracing that, but the people who are like they're they're winning, they're doing great stuff.

Dr. Katie 33:33

Yeah. And I know, Rhonda, you got a question, but I just want to put like an exclamation point on that because that's my doctoral research. Like my doctoral research is workplace motivation, employee satisfaction. When you give a damn about people, when you do the work, when people feel seen, yes, they have the tools they need and then the autonomy to do their job, to the point of this amazing client you have. They did the hard work, but then they their profits went up, probably their turnover went down, their engagement went up. Like that's really what we need in the workplaces to do that, do that work. I mean, I love like thank you for sharing that story. I think that's the exclamation point there.

Speaker 2 34:12

Well, they should have desired you from the beginning, but they didn't. So next time they will.

Dr. Katie 34:17

That is

Standards, Signals, And Gen Z

Dr. Katie 34:17

the story of that is the story of small partnership life. Like I will tell you, I know Rhonda, we deal with this all the time, where someone wants to hire, insert big name from the 1980s, 90s, and early 2000s, and they pay four million dollars to get a report. And then they they pass over this small business, and then they don't get the results they want and they get pissed. Like there are so many great, and I hate to use the term consultants, but true business partners, not just in Kansas City but around the country that will deliver action. So yeah, we're gonna clip that and have you say it like another million times.

Rhonda Jolyean 34:57

Well, and I think to that point, you know, coming from the change management world, coming from kind of the old school, having a lot of that old school mentality tell me you're wrong until they then bring me back and say, okay, actually we need your help. I have to bring in the resistance question and say, okay, that story is amazing. And I believe it. And I believe in human first. I believe in what a lot of people would call the fluff. But what would you say to an old school mindset CEO about, no, here are the hard facts about employee engagement and retention. And not only do I have this story, but here's why giving a damn is actually going to improve X on whatever your goals are.

Speaker 2 35:51

Well, I think that's why we just all have to continue having these conversations and highlight the companies that are from Main Street to Wall Street and everywhere in between, like doubling down on care. And and it's not, it's not fluff, it's not BS, it's not cute, it's it's genuine business return, no surprise to give a damn about your people. And and you can feel it. So if we talk about like from a brand standpoint, you can feel when you walk, I can, and I know you guys will be able to, so I'm gonna get to your CEO point. But when you walk into like a big, stodgy, static corporate place that is just infused with a bunch of cubicles and bad lighting, you can feel the energy like being sucked out, right? Like you just know those people, those people like they left their soul like severance at the at the doorstep, and they're just like dying, they're they're literally distracted the whole day waiting until five o'clock. And they don't care, they just they're just numbing through it because they have to get paid, which is a very human fundamental need. And then you contrast that with, you know, Ron, I think I don't know all the stuff you do, but like when you do have a visually appealing place, when it does feel warm, when you are

Giving Leaders Shared Language

Speaker 2 37:07

asked how you're feeling today, like, is it does it take a little bit more time? Yeah, sure. But like the return is astounding. And and and I think of a counselor I've seen back in the day that he he used to say, like, we just want to feel felt. That's like that's so good. And and once we do, like, we then move through whatever those feelings are. You can't you can't check your humanity at the door. And so to get to your point at the CEO level, it's like first, I'd I'd I think I'd try to be curious and say, like, how's it going? Well, we have an open door policy. They I don't know, they can come in here anytime. Does anybody come in? No, why don't they come in? I I don't know, uh doors open. Well, they don't come in because you don't go out. Like you have no idea how it's going. Yeah. And so I I think, honest to God, I think the the you can you can you can prop up culture for a period of time with fear and intimidation and surveillance, but ultimately, the second someone has a choice, they're gonna leave. And so I think is the more you start to get into like, is it working? And and ultimately, I my guess is that CEO is also afraid because they he most likely doesn't really know what to do. And this old way is not working as well. And I'm gonna just double down on what I know, which is control, and I don't have any. And so I just I think it's like I think it's required work for people like us and Brad Hill and Teresa Carey and Mark Schaefer and all these people that are that are generating cultures of based around care to keep having those conversations. And frankly, to get specific with you know, the the biggest example I keep referencing is Chick-fil-A. They're doing nine million per restaurant on six days a week when their competitive set are all less than three to four million bucks a year, they're making a lot more money by caring, a lot more money, and therefore they're able to then hire better people and hire more people and expand locations and pay people for college development, all this other stuff. And it's like it works. Yeah, and we got to have those conversations more and more.

Dr. Katie 39:26

Yeah, yeah, it's so true. And I love you talking about that. I actually it pulled me back to two recent podcasts we did. One was really highlighting Ronda's work, which is Beauty in the Brain, How Neuroesthetics Shapes Leadership Change and Resilience. But then our February 24th one is titled No Crown Still Bossing, Why Vibes, Plants, and Walkabouts beat PowerPoints. And it's get all the office get to know your people.

Speaker 3 39:54

So I love it.

Dr. Katie 39:57

Well,

Human First Workplaces Win

Dr. Katie 39:57

so as we're we're wrapping up, and we do want to hear, you know, how people get in touch with you. We'll do that in a second. But I'm just wondering, I know the book has just been out a week or two when this comes out in two weeks. Any surprising feedback you've heard from readers or clients? Any little like, ooh, we need to make that a bumper sticker?

Speaker 2 40:18

That's interesting. I mean, it's been yeah, a couple weeks, and there's part of me that's like, oh man, I wish this would quote unquote like blow up, right? So there's like part of my neediness that's like, oh, I wish this thing had like a bunch more steam. What's really interesting though is the true grounded part, the truer grounded part of me is like, man, the the work itself is starting to show up in these really interesting ways. And and I get, you know, not tons, but I'll get a text from a former colleague that's like, hey, I read this book, and this one thing stood out. And it's like, that's it. Like that's period, like, period in the story, that's plenty, and that's enough, and it's so good. And so, Katie, I think to answer your question, people are and it it's so cool because I can't take any credit for it because it kind of happened at the very end. This concept of the match has been really simple and and it and it keeps coming up. And so there's a whole long story in the book about why the match is important, but from a practical leadership standpoint, what came back was like, oh, we're all carrying around this proverbial matchbox every day. And and it's not this black and white or either or by any means, but we've got the power to strike that match and cause harm and inflict pain and call people an embarrassment, right? Andor we've got the same power to how you know, you hold out your match like the candle lights through us. I get to light yours, and I get to give my power away for good. And what ends up happening is then the leader, him or herself, gets better because they're like, oh, I've got, I do have this power. I don't want to minimize it, I don't want to hide from it, but I do want to use it for something other than my own ego power, you know, control, whatever. I want to give give that away. And so it's been really cool. Like, and it's also a really cheap swag giveaway as we're giving away these little boxes of givea damn matches because it's like just this symbol of this little tiny stick doesn't cost you a damn thing relatively to all the other stuff we buy. But we have that power, and and when we do strike that match, it it creates a it creates a it creates a spark.

Rhonda Jolyean 42:26

I love that visual, and again, that just gives people that when they have that visual, it gives them something to hold on to and it makes them remember and it can help change their behavior. Love that. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Katie 42:41

So you have a website, thegiveadambook.com. People can also get the book on Amazon. Where do you prefer people to buy the book?

unknown 42:49

Yeah.

Speaker 2 42:49

Well, it all it all ends up going to Amazon anyway. So yeah, the just uh yeah. We just redirect it. Yeah, I just wanted to control some of the brand experience.

Dr. Katie 43:00

Yeah, no, that's that's great. So we'll put that in the show notes. They can also go to Amazon. But before we say goodbye to you, talk a little bit more about guild and the work you do and how someone could connect with you if they if they need you.

Speaker 2 43:15

Yeah, I appreciate the the imitation in in its most simple form. The the work is again, how do we help a brand find their heartbeat? And and it's very related to all the stuff we've talked about, you know, the the leader tools, you know, from a givea damn standpoint. But the brand itself, what we've discovered is there's this big gap. Most companies have like really

Making Care Tangible On The Floor

Speaker 2 43:37

squeaky tight business strategy, right? Whether it's EOS or some other kind of form or function. They've got like, hey, this is where we're going from a business standpoint. And then they they have all this annoyance and frustrations and kind of whack a tactic, is what I've been saying lately, of like, how do we like tell this thing and like we should get busy on TikTok and we should, you know, do SEO, and maybe our AI search will get better, and we will like drive a bunch of customers that way. And again, those aren't bad, those are like necessary, and there's a point in the conversation, but there's this heartbeat in the middle, which is the brand lived from the inside out. And and when the brand has clarity of purpose, the people they're connecting to, and then a pulse, okay. So the heartbeat of the brand. When it beats from the inside out and the energy flows, and the people like working there, and there's clarity, and there's there's understanding of what the damn story is. So that the the baffling thing, and it's almost like it's every time, but we ask a leadership team to describe their business, and every single one of them is like, Well, yeah, I mean, like we uh uh we do this, and some people say we do it this way. There's no there's we're not singing from the same sheet of music. We're all singing for all these different tunes, and it's like, well, no wonder you're not executing into your business strategy. And so the the brand heartbeat is that centering, grounded, strong, compelling, captivating thing. And the we we we talk about being in the vital signs. Like the vital signs are is it clear, is it connected, is it creative? And because if it is, like it will generate its own growth. You don't have to force it, you don't have to like, you know, the the the analogy is like we we have all these, you know, hypothermia on our on our fingers and toes, but it's like, well, actually, what the real problem is the heartbeat of your business is not clear. It sucks. And you have a better story to tell, but you're not telling it in a way that's connecting to the people inside your business first, and then therefore, so they can be the storytellers on the outside of the business. So, anyhow, that's what the work we do on the brand side. And it's it's really rewarding because it's it helps people get clear, and then like, oh, that's all it's a mirror. It's they already knew it. We didn't make it up, they already just didn't have a way to articulate it in a way that was compelling and creative.

Rhonda Jolyean 45:55

Yeah, that's awesome.

Dr. Katie 45:57

Yeah, I love it. Well, we will make sure we put all of contact information in the show notes, and we always recommend people reach out, connect to you. I I'm so thankful you you joined us. It was a such a great conversation. I love the work you do. And and I know the first time we met in person, we were like we kind of just felt like we knew each other because of LinkedIn. So I'm so happy for this. And then for you to meet Rhonda. I know there's so many overlaps. Rhonda's probably like, oh, in this, and this.

Speaker 2 46:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, it all matters, and it's all really good. And I'm yeah, super grateful for the the invitation and yeah, just to continue these types of conversations is I think that is the work that we all get to do on the path to healthier leadership for sure.

Dr. Katie 46:43

Yeah. Thank you. It is so perfect. Well, we invite our our listeners, please share the podcast with people. Make

Addressing Old-School Resistance

Dr. Katie 46:52

sure you share Justin's story and the work that he's doing. Buy the book, buy 20 of the books of friends and clients, Easter, put them in Easter baskets. That would be sense, right? Yeah.

Speaker 3 47:04

Love it.

Dr. Katie 47:05

So, yeah. And then always anyone who's listening to podcasts, please rate and review the podcast. It really helps us continue our reach. We would love to continue our international so we can eventually write Rhonda. We want to have our international podcast conversation.

Speaker 3 47:19

Headquarters, love it.

Dr. Katie 47:20

Love it. So, well, thank you so much for joining us this week. And we will talk to you next time on the Path to Leadership. Bye, everyone. Bye.