Change Isn’t the Problem. How We Lead It Is.

Change doesn’t fail because people are stubborn; it fails because uncertainty flips the brain into threat mode and leaders often respond with more slides instead of more humanity. We dive into the real reasons transformations stall and unpack practical ways to lead people through messy, uncertain shifts with clarity and care.

We start by naming the core drivers of motivation—autonomy, competence, and belonging—and show how each one gets squeezed during change. Then we examine the most common leadership missteps: announcing without context, confusing communication with alignment, expecting instant buy-in, and refusing to model the new way. You’ll hear why resistance is valuable data, how to map fear points before rollout, and what it takes to keep psychological safety when stakes feel high. Instead of posters and platitudes, we emphasize stories with meaning: concrete examples that connect change to what teams actually value.

From there, we get tactical. We talk about recruiting informal influencers early—the hallway voices who can unlock momentum—and turning skeptics into partners with a “Gary” strategy. We outline feedback systems that honor different processing styles: anonymous surveys, peer circles, manager check-ins, and staggered Q&As that allow time to think. You’ll learn how to set iterative competency checks, create visible leadership habits like “walk the halls” listening hours, and hold a steady cadence of updates that explain not just the what but the why and the trade-offs. Ignore the human layer and you’ll pay in rework, burnout, missed deadlines, and attrition; center people and your plan accelerates instead of drags.

If you’re steering an AI rollout, a reorg, or any culture shift, this conversation gives you the playbook to replace fear with focus and turn resistance into progress. If the ideas resonate, subscribe, share this episode with a colleague, and leave a quick review so more leaders can find it. What’s one behavior you’ll model this week to make change stick?

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Transcript

Kicking Off: Why Change Now

Dr. Katie 0:32

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the path to leadership. I'm Dr. Katie. And I'm Rhonda Jolene. And we are so thrilled to have you. Especially this is going to be a real fun conversation this week. I'm excited for it.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:45

I think so. I think everything we've been talking about lately has led up to this. And we can get directly to the heart of the matter, if you will.

Dr. Katie 0:56

Yeah. Yeah. It it will be fun. And I have enjoyed, we didn't, we chatted about all kinds of other things before we jumped on, but we didn't really chat about kind of feedback from the last couple of episodes. But those have been so much fun being able to answer questions that we get all the time.

Rhonda Jolyean 1:12

I had a friend of mine that did say that she listened to both episodes, and she said, You're speaking directly to what we're going through right now at my organization, especially with AI transformation. I said, Girl, don't I know it?

unknown 1:27

Right.

Dr. Katie 1:27

You're like, we literally hear it all the all the time.

Rhonda Jolyean 1:31

She knows that we talk about it all the time.

People At The Center Of Transformation

Dr. Katie 1:34

That is so funny. Well, and so our topic for today is about change and change management and change behaviors and how we lead through change. I love it because as I was preparing for it, and you said that as you were preparing for it, my good friend ChatGPT recommended the title Change Isn't the Problem, How We Lead Is. I thought that was a fun title.

Rhonda Jolyean 2:00

Yeah. Most of the time, it's not any strategy that anybody can put together or any plan at the center of any transformation is the people or yourself, right? I mean, literally in today's day and age, we have the best experts, the best AI telling us things like how we can lose weight. But if you aren't ready yourself and personally, as the person, you aren't going to be able to make that transformation and make it stick. So when it comes to any transformation, good or bad, whether you're open to it or not, if you don't have the people at the center of what you do, that is what causes transformations to fail or to be successful. And by the way, to start things off, I quote this all the time, but Mackenzie has done tons of studies, and 70% of all change initiatives fail, not succeed, they fail to continue on and be successful because they don't put generally people do not put people at the center. And I know we're going to talk about this later. That sounds very fluffy, and it could be nothing but farther from the truth.

Dr. Katie 3:31

Yeah. Yeah. And it's so interesting to have this conversation when we're having it, because you know, it this is the first episode in March, and we know typically, you know, resolutions or you know, things that we want to do at the beginning of the year, 30, 60 days, that's gone. And so you think about organizations, 70%. I did not know that number. That is a shocking number, but also not surprising. But you think about these companies that come into the beginning of the year raring to go, and it's like, have they lost steam already? Are they doing what they said they were gonna do?

Rhonda Jolyean 4:07

Oh, I know. And just personally, to take it back, I mean, I like to always talk about what we do in our personal life because it affects our professional life, and also we can reflect on our personal lives and then compare it to our professional workspaces. For me, I have my birthday, our we are Capricorns, our birthdays are in January. I like to make a lot of goals around my birthday. We were just talking about a big vacation, beach vacation I have later on in the spring. I had this wonderful vision of myself working out every day. I don't do resolutions. We talk we've talked about that in previous podcasts, but had so many wonderful visions of you know, energy and healthy Rhonda and all of that. But as a behavior change professional myself, I know what to do. And I didn't do the things, and I've only I've only done certain behavior changes to get me to where I want to be. So you said it was 60 days in this year. Man, it has felt this winter has been so weird. It's felt like it's six months, and we're still kind of up and down. So I can only imagine what organizations are going. Well, actually, I know what they're going through in this first quarter. You know, I've seen it before, time and again. We do not change as people. And I used to quote that all the time is we constantly want change, but that is the thing that we fear the most.

Neuroscience Of Uncertainty And Threat

Dr. Katie 5:39

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's so interesting that's such a great setup because it's, you know, we think about this and we're going to talk about this, you know, smart, very capable people resist change. And, you know, as you said, 70% of initiatives fail, which is so counterintuitive to what we naturally want to happen. And so I'm excited for us to jump into the neuroscience of it, but also the behavior change of it, and and to to tie this up with kind of some nuggets, hopefully at the end, that people will will roll with. Um yeah, absolutely. So let's let's start with why change feels so hard. So will you talk about the science of this from the brain on change and you know why why are we failing at change?

Rhonda Jolyean 6:29

Right. Well, I'm sure if you ask anybody that's been in corporate America, they can tell you multiple reasons reasons why we are failing at change. But to bring it back to the person, it is so hard to manage change to even change individually because we crave we crave predictability. So any kind of change, good or bad, you are really wanting to have a child, and you finally get to have a child. Well, that is a new trigger in your life, and that triggers uncertainty, good and bad. You want to lose weight. There's going to be uncertainties around how you're going to get there, what you're going to feel like, new haircuts. Even if you want something really bad, there's a lot of uncertainty around it. There's a lot of bad changes that we deal with all of the time. I mean, what's going to happen to my job because of AI? What is my husband thinking about when he's not doing the dishes, you know, all of these different changes with relationships or et cetera. And we really want that certainty. And when we have uncertainty, that creates a threat. And when that threat is triggered, we don't feel psychologically safe. I feel as a human being, we constantly are operating out of unsafe psychological safety, if that makes sense. It's counterintuitive. And that's kind of how we were, how we've been ever since evolution started. You know, we there's been animals that have wanted to eat us, and then now we have machines that want to, you know, take over our jobs, or how are we going to buy groceries this week, etc. So that's where we always where we operate from. And that's why any type of change, whether it's good or bad, triggers us with that, with being not psychologically safe.

Dr. Katie 8:43

Yeah. Yeah, that's so interesting. I tell people all the time, like, our brain's made to keep us alive, not happy. Um and so when we think about that, it's interesting. Like we want that certainty, and when we don't, our brain starts, starts that panic of this doesn't feel good, this doesn't feel safe, this doesn't, we don't feel in control, which makes so much, so much sense. And when I think about that, oh go ahead.

Rhonda Jolyean 9:08

Well, I was just gonna say the whole, the only thing certain about life is uncertainty, and that you're gonna die, right? And the and yet we were created, or we, you know, however we came to be, everything we want certainty, and it's so counterintuitive because life is so uncertain.

Motivation: Autonomy, Competence, Belonging

Dr. Katie 9:32

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And when I think about change, you know, I tie it to, you know, the motivation theory, self-determination theory, which I talk about from my my doctoral research. And part of self-determination theory and the catalyst workplace model is people need basic things to be motivated, and it's autonomy, competence, and relatedness. And when we think about change, when we think about change from autonomy, I didn't choose it this, or I didn't choose it this way, or it's not happening the way I expected it to, or confidence, which is I don't know how to do this, I don't have the skills, I don't know what the future is going to look like, so I don't feel confident, and then that relatedness could feel I don't feel connected, I don't feel in control, I don't feel a part of it. And so we have this resistance to change, which then causes people to disengage, which is so so counterintuitive to what we're trying to do. But that that panic when we don't have those those basic needs met, then it it decreases our motivation and causes us to to push and to to avoid. And and I think it's interesting because leaders think that people are resistant to change. Well, my people are just set in their ways, they want to do it the way they've they've always done it, right?

unknown 10:58

Right.

Dr. Katie 10:59

But when we think about it from a motivation standpoint, people are actually just resistant to feeling incompetent, powerless, and disconnected.

Rhonda Jolyean 11:08

I'm so glad that you mentioned that. Resistance is always going to happen, and resistance is data. So if you think about it, you don't need to, yes, we need to manage resistance, traditional change management. There are tactics to manage resistance. However, resistance is not to be frowned upon. When someone is resistant, that gives you data. Well, what is happening? Generally, what is happening is there are feelings. So let's take it back to the human. It's not, oh, let me write a strategy around this that's going to help them. What exactly are they resistant to? And it's exactly what you were talking about, probably loss of identity, around their something around their feelings. You know, there's a lot of things, and we're going to talk about what usually leaders do wrong and what they can do better. And it's not, you can have the best laid plan, but your behavior is going to change how people resist or not or lessen the resistance. And so to go into it thinking my people are just resistant, this is the way it is, that is a very, well, frankly, ignorant way to think about things because you as a person are also wanting to be psychologically safe. So if you come into it with that as a baseline instead, you are going to automatically be more successful at change than someone who starts with resistance.

Common Leadership Mistakes In Change

Dr. Katie 12:41

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's interesting, you know, the mistakes that we make and the mistakes that we've seen that lead to failure. I think it's it's common. I think as people are listening to this, they're probably gonna be like, yep, either done that or experienced that. Yep, done that or seen that. You know, it's announcing change without context. It's we're we're now gonna do it this way. And from a working genius standpoint, I know we're gonna do a future session on on we've talked about working genius, we'll continue to talk about working genius, but galvanizing is such an important part of working genius, and it's a step that's often skipped, which is helping people understand the why behind it. So when we think about change, it's like, hey, we're gonna change, and giving no galvanizing, no context, no like here, here's why and here's what and here's how. Over-indexing on strategy and not paying attention to the human, the emotion of it, which you led at the beginning, confusing communication with alignments, um, expecting immediate buy-in, expecting that at a leadership meeting, someone's gonna see it up and say, and then people be like, Oh, this feels this feels great. Let's do it. Because even, you know, you think about it in our own house, like your partner will come to you with this great idea, but it's it's it's a change, and it takes some time to. I know my husband in the past has been like, You're not excited about it. And I'm like, I'm just trying to process and digest it. Like, it's not good or bad. And my pause doesn't mean I am not like, heck yeah, let's do it. My pause is let me work through this. Yeah, exactly. And then the the last one, and then I can't wait to hear your thoughts on this, is the not modeling the change themselves. So they're they're the changes for you and not not for for me. So I know that you you do so much of this work and you've done so much of this work. So I would love to hear your thoughts on on what you've seen.

Emotions, Vibes, And Real Pulse Checks

Rhonda Jolyean 14:42

Well, I mean, all of those things. I think well, talk about emotions. I think when we talk about emotions again, and we've said it in a previous podcast, the vibes. I think, you know, to go back to that, it is so overlooked. And yet when we are now in a space where AI is taking over, people are going through burnout, it cannot be under, people are disengaged, it cannot be understated how important emotions and the vibes are, and you have to have pulse checks. Gone are the days where emotions are soft, too soft, and we cannot plan around those. And it doesn't take a lot, you know. You have to, one of the things that people, especially with not or expecting buy-in, immediate buy-in, one of the things that people often forget about is well, we're going to announce, even if they get everything right, we as leaders are going to be really vocal about this. We're going to cascade messages, we're going to, you know, work on alignment, not just communication, all the stuff. What they often miss is having people contribute and have a piece in the decisions at every level from the beginning. Because that, and you know, I think my friends who are change managers who are listening are going to be like, Are you kidding? But they're gonna scold me after this. But I feel like the change network, the term change network is very people roll their eyes at it a lot when they are not a change manager. And I totally get it. It's a very fluff, it can be a fluffy word and it can be just another thing I have to do on my plate as a leader. But if you think of it as who in our teams, who in the different levels are the people who have their pulse on the vibe? Who are the influencers? Who are the people that can tell us what's really going on? Are people even reading this communication? Do they, is there a vibe of I am losing my job, we are losing our job, or there's all of this, you know, because there's going to be up and down emotions constantly. When you don't have people at all levels have a say and a voice and have a consistent feedback loop from the beginning, you are going to fail. And again, that comes back to putting the human at the center. It also all of, you know, when people say, well, human-centered change, that sounds super fluffy. Well, think about how you would want to change. Yeah. When you really think about it, don't just say, well, you know, we've got a plan and we're gonna follow it. No, that's not. I've like you don't become a different person, a completely different human when you get a leadership position. Think about back in the day, like how you would have wanted to be communicated to, how you would have wanted to be brought into conversations. You know, we cannot lose our empathy when we become leaders, and we cannot lose the empathy towards human beings of any change, especially ourselves. And that's what it has to do with really embodying that change, even when it's hard, even when I don't know the answers during any change. And we've talked about that before too. It is so people will respect you so much more if you say, I honestly do not have the answers for you. I apologize about that. I am working to get the answers to XYZ about this change. And I will loop back with you within the next two weeks. And if I still don't have that answer, then I, you know, we will talk then or whatever. People will appreciate that so much more than just silence. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Katie 19:11

And yeah, exactly. And I think it's so interesting. I love that you talk about, you know, we leaders when they get into that role, it's you know, it sometimes we forget. Sometimes we forget what it means to be an individual contributor. Sometimes we forget that we've sat in a chair where we didn't have all the information. And good change or bad change, it's hard, it's scary, as you talked about. And so we've got to remind ourselves as leaders, and especially people who are leading change. And when I lead change, I don't just try to, yes, it's great to get the executives and the leadership on board, like they have to be on board, but I go to the informal leaders, like who are the voices that sit in the room and say, This'll never work? Like that's ridiculous. And I always tease because I used to have a guy many, many years ago, his name was Gary. He was the most difficult person in the world. And so anytime I had a change initiative, I would bring him in and say, Gary, I value you so much, and you always give such great feedback. And, you know, I really would love to hear your thoughts on this change initiative that we're gonna do. Will you partner with me to help me make sure I get it right? So the beauty is then when I'm doing the work and rolling it out, Gary's standing next to me instead of sitting in the back of the room sabotaging me. And and so that's been kind of a tool. I know we're gonna talk about other tools, but when you talk about getting people at all different levels, I just Gary pops into my head.

Influencers And The “Gary” Strategy

Rhonda Jolyean 20:37

Oh, absolutely. And they can, I mean, there is tons of formal research on this, tons of formal literature. But these informal leaders, these influencers, their influence cascades. And people, when they see them about out and about in the offices, in the hallways, supporting this change and talking it up, that has a ripple effect. And I can really geek out about the statistics and really need the visuals to talk about it. But once you get those voices on board, you basically have, you know, 78% of your population on board. So it makes sense to get buy-in early from those informal leaders.

Dr. Katie 21:24

Yeah, yeah. And I think that leads so beautifully into the behavior of change, right? It's the it it is change requires this behavior change. It requires, and we've talked about leadership requires behavior change. And really, when we're talking about change management, it requires the behavior, behavior change. We need clarity, we need repetition, feedback, accountability, emotional intelligence. Just a new vision statement, some new posters on the wall is not going to make change. I used to work for this place, and every year they had a word of the year, and that was the we're supposed to, that was going to be our our guiding light for the year. But they never really talked about it. They just slap up some new posters.

unknown 22:10

Yeah.

Dr. Katie 22:11

And they'd weave it in, and it it became a joke. You know, it's like, so just because we send out a memo or or do a new vision statement, it we have to have that that behavior change.

From Slogans To Behavior Change

Rhonda Jolyean 22:24

Yeah. I think, you know, some of the best tools that I've seen are super easy. So So even if you have an initiative, a change initiative, think about at the beginning the why. You don't need big long stories. But even if you just have two to three bullet points of value statements and think about how you could at the large meetings, town halls, et cetera, start with reading off those two to three bullet points. And at first, people might think, why are we doing this? If it's not part of the culture, but then they'll get really used to it. And those cascading bullet points will, you know, work keywords will start sticking with people as to, okay, you know, this is for, you know, more autonomy or, you know, the different higher, I'm going from my old corporate job, but patient satisfaction or employee engagement or whatever. And so you got to think about how you can easily insert things into things you already do, not you don't have to do some big elaborate budget cost thing. You can also think about how you know, we as people think about marketing. And you don't have to be a marketing expert, but look at LinkedIn, looked at look at TikTok for heaven's sakes. I mean, what are the things you like to look at? It's really stories, right? So when I would work with big hospital systems, the most impactful things about change weren't, oh, this is gonna make your day so much better, or we're gonna save so much money. It's like, well, who is not me as a nurse, you know, it's really how has this directly impacted the people that I care about, you know, like I'm there for the patient, or you know, maybe I am in it to get out at my shift time, or you know, you've got to think about what people really care about, and then say true stories about that. And, you know, or and this is a great example of maybe Gary, the Gary's of the world coming in and saying, you know, where do you see the benefits? Where do you see the things that we're gonna have challenges with? Because as leaders, it can be, you're so up in the clouds or in the logistics of it all that it can be hard to see the why a lot of times. So then to have the people who are actually doing the work also telling you how it will impact their day for better or for worse, that's those are the people who are really gonna be your rock star storytellers.

Dr. Katie 25:18

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And that that leads to, you know, we're we're gonna do a little short version of this today, but I know this conversation on change will will keep going, but but there are some, I think, questions that leaders should ask before change. Um and you know, you had some great questions that you talked about there. I think other things we got to think about is what fear might this trigger? You know, is it gonna the fear of losing their job, the fear of, you know, conf not knowing what I'm doing, confidence, things like that. Where will people feel less competent? Do they need training? Do they need, you know, different skill development, things like that? Where might someone be losing autonomy? I see this all the time where a company will change and then someone will lose part of their job, and people think, oh, I'm freeing up some time for them. And people are like, wait, no, no, no. I liked that little slice that I that I did. So, where might people be losing autonomy? How do we preserve preser preserve connection? And how will we model this consistently? I see so often, and and you probably do too, where we'll we'll put out a change initiative, and then because we don't galvanize it, because we don't share it, we lose momentum. Uh I see companies where they're rolling on a new policy, but they don't hold people accountable, they don't explain the why, they don't do anything, and people are like, just wait it out, it'll go away. Oh, yeah.

Stories, Meaning, And Real-World Benefits

Rhonda Jolyean 26:50

Oh, yeah. If that's part of your culture, why not? You know, I would totally do the exact same thing. Yeah, if you don't have those influencers and leaders holding people accountable, like you said, it will never stick. To make change stick as well, you have to have, I would say, iterative competency checks. And not only do you have to ask people about what they're losing, what they're gaining, you have to have multiple ways for them to answer. Because often, and we know this, it's like I could let's take it back to the personal. I could talk to my grandma in a way that my aunts, her daughters, it's different when they when she couldn't drive anymore. You know, she's going to talk to them in a certain way, different than she's going to talk to me. It's the exact same thing with managers versus peers, right? Yeah. So think about having peer-to-peer feedback, manager to team feedback, think about anonymous feedback and surveys, think about town hall QA's. You've got to have so, and that is something that people don't think about. They're like, oh, well, we'll have a question, a QA at a town hall. Yeah. Like about the new health insurance policies that is going to be more costly for people this year. Are you kidding? Like, we have to have so many that's affecting people's bottom lines. Yeah. That you have to have so many more ways to have people ask questions so that way they can feel like they have at least some autonomy in their jobs or in their company, you know? So yeah, as you can see, I get very passionate about that.

Dr. Katie 28:39

I love it. Well, I love it. And it's funny because I did a session this morning with a client on acceptance, and I talk so much in acceptance session about introverts and extroverts and different cultures and confidence. And, you know, you think about you're announcing a massive change, and then like any questions? Nope. Okay, good. Yeah. And those internal processors haven't had time to process, they haven't had time to internalize the impact. They go home and tell their partner, and their partner's like, wait, what? Like, yeah, is is this treatment that I get covered? Oh, shoot, I don't, but I don't know, you know, and so exactly you are so right in, you know, inviting voices, you know, understanding that people are going to process it in different ways. And I love to like to me, leadership is Patrick Lincioni once said, being an executive, you become a chief reminding officer. And so you're constantly, you know, over-communicating, you're reminding people, not just the task or the policy of the changes, but really the context of it all. The the why.

Leader Questions To Ask Before Change

Rhonda Jolyean 29:49

And again, I I find it difficult to always speaking of reminding, to remind leaders, middle managers, team leads about the importance of. I know it to take a step back, I know this seems a lot of human behavior psych heavy. And it is to deal with human beings, we all have to be good at relations and to think about, you know, to think outside of ourselves, be empathetic, and to say, what is this person going to need? What are these teams going to need as people? But here's the thing: if we don't do it, you are going to end up costing the budget, it is going to get bigger and bigger. It's going to swell bigger and bigger. I've seen this cost millions, millions of dollars, 10 to 15 plus years longer for projects. That's so much work. That's overkill with budget. It's lost deadlines, lost timeline, lost trust and accountability from clients and frustration. People are going to start quitting all of this. But it is hard to get even buy-in from people to do human-centered change because it is very, well, it is it is time consuming because humans are time consuming and very difficult. And also, and also it's very hard to explicitly say the ROI up front. Yeah. Because we are not all the same. I could say that in one organization, it's going to, you know, save X amount of time because you have a certain culture issue, and the other organization, it's going to save, you know, stress because you have employee engagement issues. But it's not going to be the same for everybody. And that's what we always look for, right? Is a pill, a cookie-cutter solution as humans. And that's what the very frustrating thing is about working with humans on human-centered change. And yet it's challenging and it's rewarding when it works. And when you see it in action, it's also beautiful. And I don't know.

Dr. Katie 32:13

Yeah. I love it. And I I tell people like the beauty of being a leader of people is you get to work with people. But what makes it so hard is you have to work with other people. People are hard, right? I think you know that as we as we close some nuggets to lead to lead with people, I think if you're leading change right now, you got to really pause and ask yourself, you know, are you managing logistics or people? Pay attention to, you know, you're you're leading humans. So you started this with, you know, those human behaviors are so important. And they're really, I challenge people to reflect on what change are we resisting? What are we avoiding? Where might our teams feel unsafe when we're trying to lead change? And what behaviors need to shift first, whether it be theirs or yours, what behaviors do we need to shift to set up successful change in our organizations?

Feedback Loops That Actually Work

Rhonda Jolyean 33:13

Yeah. And I'll just give a couple of really easy tactics that leaders can use. So if you are a leader that works from an office, so in person, some of the best, most successful changes I've seen happen are with the leaders that literally not just make themselves available, but take the extra step and go out and literally say, I will be walking the halls. And this is I saw a C IO, chief information officer of a humongous hospital system do this. Go and walk the halls and say, I will be out every Thursday on from 3 to 5 p.m. or whatever. Feel free to come and ask me questions or tell me what you don't like or what you do like, you know? And it was basically a walking tour, a listening tour. I love that. And literally, not only even if I don't talk to you because of whatever reasons, I see that you're accountable, you're saying what you're doing, you're visible, you are visible and you're representing that you stand behind this change, big or small, doesn't matter. You walk around, be visible, be extra visible. And I know it doesn't matter how busy you are because that says this, this is something important, and I'm making time for it. And then another thing would be think about how your culture works when it comes to these informal influencers and leaders, and ask them how formal or informal they would like this program to be. So if you let them, if you let them create it, they will create something magical and they will run with it.

Dr. Katie 35:33

So oh, I love those nuggets. I love those. I know we could talk about this for days. So we'll be doing future podcasts on this because we love this topic so much. We would love to hear from the listeners. How is change going for you? What are you doing? What questions do you have? What did you hear during this episode? Where you're like, your your change management friends are gonna be like, just a second.

Rhonda Jolyean 35:57

They already know that I'm kind of a lone, a lone loner, lone star. I was gonna say lone wolf, but I don't like that. Like a lone star when it comes to I like to butt my head up against the system sometimes. I love it.

Overcommunicating The Why With Respect

Dr. Katie 36:11

I love it. Well, so our next episode will be our first guest episode. We have a special guest guest who is a local Kansas City author. So we're excited to talk to him and share his book. As always, we ask people to share the podcast, you know, leave us a review. That is so helpful. Thank you to everyone who who has. Thank you to Canada who's entered the conversation. We we know Germany and Sweden have been strong and Canada has has jumped in. So thank you to our listeners around the world. We appreciate you. And yeah, I hope everyone has a great week. Rhonda, it's so good to see you. I've been traveling, so it's it's great that we could catch up. I know, I miss you. I know, I miss you too. Thank you too. People behind the scenes don't know my the wonderful, wonderful, wonderful chaos that my life is right now. Yes. So fun. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you everyone for joining us on the path to leadership, and we'll talk to you next time. Bye, everyone. Bye.