Leaders Can Admit Uncertainty And Still Lead

Tired of the same old takes about Gen Z, AI, and “resistance to change”? We open the inbox and tackle the questions leaders whisper about but rarely answer out loud—how to lead when you don’t have all the answers, how to keep teams from turning inward, and how to reinvent without torching your energy.

We start by reframing Gen Z at work. Instead of clichés about office hours, we look at what this generation has witnessed—burnout, volatility, and rapid disruption—and why they choose outcomes over optics. You’ll hear real examples of purpose-driven, highly capable young professionals who want meaningful problems, flexibility tied to results, and leaders who explain the why. If you’ve felt stuck between legacy rules and a changing workforce, this segment helps you see strengths you can channel right now.

Then we move into the heart of modern leadership: communicating through uncertainty. AI makes the headlines, but the core issue is timeless—silence breeds fear. We share clear, repeatable scripts to name what you know, what you don’t, and when you’ll update people next. You’ll learn how to build psychological safety, create simple sensemaking routines, and “think like a marketer” so vital messages actually land. These tactics reduce rumor cycles and restore autonomy during fast-moving change.

From there, we tackle me vs we. Under pressure, teams silo, hoard resources, and compete internally. We show how to pivot to ownership over policing, align goals across functions, and reward shared wins. Expect practical language, examples of healthy followership, and ways to dismantle ego without drama. We wrap with a humane playbook for reinvention: baby steps, not identity overhauls. Tiny habits, neuroaesthetic tweaks, and five-minute practices can reset attention and build resilience without requiring time off you don’t have.

If this lands with you, follow the show, share it with a colleague who’s navigating change, and leave a review with your question—we might feature it next.

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Theme music by Emma Jo https://emmajo.rocks/

Transcript

Warm Welcome And Purpose

Dr. Katie 0:32

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Path to Leadership. I'm Dr. Katie.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:36

And I'm Rhonda Jolene.

Dr. Katie 0:38

And we are so thrilled to have you. Whether you're a first-time listener or a returning listener, thank you for joining us. We're we're happy to share some time with you.

Rhonda Jolyean 0:48

We love the people that we get to connect with in person or on the podcast. We are so thankful for these conversations.

Dr. Katie 0:57

We are. And we were just talking before we hit record. Some of the fun love notes we've gotten from people or people we've seen out in the wild who are listening to the podcast. Thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in. We appreciate it.

Rhonda Jolyean 1:12

Absolutely. I mean, we know that Katie and I get a lot out of it just speaking to each other, but it's very gratifying to know that other people are learning and growing with us. And that's such a joy to us and very aligned with our values as we always discuss.

Why Listener Questions Matter

Dr. Katie 1:30

So yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, and today we were calling for questions from listeners. And while we didn't necessarily get a lot of questions from listeners, I think people don't always know how to interact with podcasts. They they listen quietly. We have been getting a lot of questions from people just that we interact with. And so we thought we would kind of talk about some of those topics today that we get questions about all the time.

Rhonda Jolyean 1:59

Right. I know that you and I deal with clients and prospective clients and also peers in networks and community boards, etc. So I thought it would be really cool. We thought it would be really cool to get some of those questions out because if one person has the question, a lot of people probably have the question and those can start conversations. And we're hoping that today's podcast can help start conversations or give some knowledge to people to bring back to your teams.

Gen Z Misconceptions And Strengths

Dr. Katie 2:29

Yeah, exactly. There's I I I love the phrase there's no dumb question because I really don't think there is. And I think sometimes there's maybe we weren't paying attention, and maybe we ask a question that someone already asked. That's not a dumb question. That's a attention to detail. You weren't paying attention. But I think you know, there's always great questions and we can always have deeper conversations. So I'm excited to dig in today. Absolutely. Let's do it.

Rhonda Jolyean 2:54

I know that one of the questions that you get a lot is around generations, which honestly, we should probably do a podcast around generations. That is such a huge topic, but we got a question lately about I keep hearing leaders complain about Gen Z, but what are we actually missing about how they're experiencing work and leadership? So, what do you think about that, Katie?

Dr. Katie 3:24

Yeah, I love this question and I love talking about generations. I actually spoke, gosh, it was about two weeks ago for a group called Next KC, and they are a Gen Z group of professionals, and I'm not intimidated speaking in front of a bunch of people often in this room. They introduced themselves and what they are doing, and I was like, I'm having low imposter syndrome. Really? Oh my gosh, 50-year-old me listening to these amazing, impactful, driven, you know, taking life by you know, the horns and just shaking it. I was just so inspired by them. And I'm like, I wish every leader who complains about Gen Z could have been in that room and listened to the next generation talk about how they want to change the world and revolutionize things. And it's so fascinating because what we're hearing is, you know, Gen Z is, you know, they don't want to be in the office and they don't want to, you know, work a full eight-hour day and they don't want to do this and they don't want to do that. And it's like, well, time times have changed since the good old days when we, you know, were in the office as as newbies, but and we don't have to be there for eight hours to get stuff done. And we can be more efficient and more effective. And there's just so many things that this generation has watched their parents go through and their grandparents go through from uncertainty to burnout to constant change. And they're like, Why would I want that? Like, right, what don't we all want better for the generations that come after us? And so why are we so insistent that they have to, you know, come and sit and hold up the walls for eight hours? If the job's done, the job's done. And why do they have to, you know, come in and do timeless, painless work to check a box and then be like, now I'm ready for this next big project? Like they are so smart and so educated and so further along than we were because we didn't have the internet and we didn't have the wealth of information, and we didn't, we hadn't lived as much life as they have lived. And so they're coming in already so much more mature in their career than we ever did. And I think I think we've got to get past some of this. And it was funny because as I was closing out with the group, I said, you need to give the older generation some grace. Because quite frankly, some of the things they do scare the hell out of us. Uh because we just don't, you know, we just we we were we were not as I guess aware, you know, globally aware of the world back when we all started out. I don't know. There's just so much to it. You're right. We need to do a whole podcast here on it. What do you, I mean, what do you think?

Stereotypes vs Individual Stories

Rhonda Jolyean 6:41

I hate the idea of generational categories. I get why people stereotype, people put we automatically as human beings like to categorize things for a reason. It helps define things and give verbiage to stuff. When I was younger and the term millennial came out, I hated that. I still hate it. I when people started making businesses out of studying these things, I thought it was ridiculous because I think this is where, even though I'm an Enneagram seven, my Enneagram one comes out and says, don't label people. I I think that every single person has different qualities and can show those in different ways. I feel like I love different aspects of every generation and every different person. I'm the type of person that has hope even in the darkness. And so for me, I I just I think it's you take every story with a grain of salt. I'm not gonna say that every single person in Gen Z brings their parents to a job interview. I just don't believe that's true. I think those are outliers. So I'm not going to believe the worst in people. I'm gonna believe the best. And for me, I think they are completely creative. They've been through a ton of trauma. I also believe as a millennial, I was through a ton of trauma, but there's not trauma comparison. And also I'm not gonna put it on the next generation to save the world. I'm also going to do what I can while I'm here to make this world a better place than what I've found it. And we've talked at nauseam about that. So I feel like we just need to understand people and it all comes back to empathy in general. Yeah. So just ask people about themselves. It doesn't matter what generation they are, is what it comes down to.

Leading Through Uncertain Change And AI

Dr. Katie 8:53

Yeah, yeah, you're so right. And and I talk about, you know, exactly what you talked about. Generations, you know, have different things that they've seen and experienced and been through that kind of shapes them, but also, you know, house we grew up in, the parents we had, the you know, the the influence we we, you know, there's just so many things that influence who we are. And so I I always weave the the thread through that, you know, it it doesn't matter when or where how we grew up, it's you know what we experience through the through it all. So yeah, yes, yeah. We'll have to add that to the list because I can talk about that because I've been doing so much the last two years, I've just been researching it so much because I hate the narrative of Gen Z. I hate what we're saying about Gen Z. We forget, we forget that we were young and dumb once, too.

Rhonda Jolyean 9:47

Yeah, everybody, everybody was right.

Dr. Katie 9:51

We and still I'm old and sometimes I make massive mistakes, but um, you know, it happens. Well, so this is an interesting one I want to talk to you about because we everyone's talking about AI, we talk about AI, we you know have a love-hate relationship with it, sometimes love it more than hate it, and vice versa. But I wonder how do leaders prepare people for change when even the leaders don't fully know what's coming and whether that's AI or whatever, like how do we what do we do as leaders?

Rhonda Jolyean 10:26

I do love this question, and I've been getting this question so much from people, particularly middle managers or senior directors, VPs, but not top CEO leadership. One thing that uh no matter what, and I'm glad that you asked it in the way of uh not just AI, AI is just it is such a big scary word for so many people, but it's just another change. And we as people go through changes so many times during our day and have throughout our history. So whether it be attack change, culture change, whatever, AI change, we're gonna continue to go through transformations from here on out. So as leaders, the number one mistake that you can make, whether you're CEO, middle manager, or peer leader, is to not communicate even when there is uncertainty. So in AI, we have this opportunity as leaders to say we are uncertain about what this will look like. And yet we will keep you updated as we are updated. I think a lot of people, when you're in those leadership positions, feel like that's a very vulnerable state to be in because you're unsure and you're feeling insecure and unsafe, perhaps, about even your job. But you will look and feel and provide so much more psychological safety for those around you and those who work for you if you address that uncertainty. If you don't, people are going to make up movies in their head, they are gonna make up the stories, and that is gonna be far worse than anything that you could address. So, and this has been, again, I gave this advice 15 years ago when we were going through big tech changes. So nothing has changed. We as people want to feel safe and even in that uncertainty, just addressing it and saying, I realize that this is scary, I realize that we have, we don't have the answers, and that is hard. And here's what we're doing to try to get those answers. Uh, communication and leadership sponsorship are the two make or break elements for any transformation. So you have to believe in this change, you have to believe in your people, and you have to communicate, communicate, communicate. You got to think like a marketer. It doesn't have to be perfect. You just have to, you know, send out the emails, talk one-on-one, do the newsletters, all of those types of things. And so you also want to uh focus on adaptability and trust and sense making. So, like we talked about in the last podcast, people use all of their senses when it comes to any change, and especially in the time of AI, where we feel like a lot of our autonomy is taken away from us. How can you make the environment around people feel more safe when it comes to what it looks like visually, what it sounds like, what people hear, et cetera? So those are little add-on bonuses, but even just the basics communicate, communicate, communicate, and address the uncertainty, that if you did those two things, you would be so you would feel better and you'd make your people feel better automatically.

Communication, Safety, And Sensemaking

Dr. Katie 14:08

Yeah, yeah. I think you're so right. And it's it it goes to the I say it all the time, your brain's made to keep you alive, not happy. And so your brain will start panicking and being like, what about this? What about this? And filling in the the gaps and the holes and and and leaving it.

Rhonda Jolyean 14:24

It's never positive.

Dr. Katie 14:25

It's never the what if everything is amazing. Yeah, yeah. It's never like, oh, this random meeting popped up on my calendar. I'm sure they want to give me a raise and a bonus and everything else. It's like I'm getting fired. Oh my gosh. Right. Yeah. But it's that, and I find it interesting because I think leaders sometimes are afraid to communicate because they don't have all the answers. But that's actually what makes it worse, is when they don't communicate.

Rhonda Jolyean 14:53

Yep, absolutely.

Dr. Katie 14:55

Oh, that's a good one.

Rhonda Jolyean 14:56

Communicate, just communicate. And AI is just another change. It's a bigger one, yes, more uncertainty, but just go back to the basics, address it. Address it. Yeah. Oh, so good. So good. Yeah. Yeah. So thinking switching gears a little bit and talking about teams, um, a question that I have for you, and that I know that a lot of other people have is how do I when it comes to teams and leading those teams, how do I shift my team from the me thinking to the we thinking when everyone is overwhelmed and tired of the change like AI, culture change, all these transformations that keep happening? By the way, everyone I talk to says, not only are we doing AI, we still have all these 15 software changes. We have regulations, you know, regulatory, governmental, federal, all of these things happening. So how do we, you know, keep it to that we thinking when everyone's just like, I might lose my job, I'm overwhelmed and I'm burnt out almost?

Moving Teams From Me To We

Dr. Katie 16:09

Yeah, yeah. Well, and it ties so beautifully to what you talked about because when we are stressed, when we are burnt out, when we are uncertain, it's so easy for us to go into that protective inward me mode. It's so easy to be like, right, okay, how does this impact me? What do I need to do for me? How do I how do I do this? And I've been doing so much speaking lately on me versus we. And the reason why I've been doing this speaking is because when we're only focused on me, when we're only focused on my little sliver of the of the pie at the organization, we create these unintentional silos of, you know, what other people are doing and how are they impacting us and how are we impacting them and what's happening? And so it it creates these breakdowns to where, you know, if the company is already struggling and then we get into this scarcity mindset and we start panicking, it will actually silo the organization more and make it actually harder for the organization to adapt to change, to fix what's broken, to, you know, get things into a better spot. And and I see it all the time with organizations that just are spiraling into this. And you see these departments just go into these me departments where instead of us fighting against our competitors, we're fighting against our internal partners. And and it comes like, I need I need another full-time employee, and they need another full-time employee. And so I'm gonna fight against my peer to get that employee. And and it just creates this this spiral of damage to the organization. So when I talk about this, I always talk about first of all, people have to understand the advantage of a we mindset of an organization mindset. You know, the advantage of when we are all rowing in the same direction, the company is going to be more successful and more profitable, which means it trickles down, you know, in the in the healthiest and greatest of organizations, you know, there's growth opportunity, there's you know, financial gain opportunity. There's so much that goes on when we go to a we mindset. And the difference really is when we when we are in a me mindset, it it becomes this real fear-based. It becomes this more like, you know, I've got to hold people accountable and I've got to do this and I've got to do that. And it's it becomes this very negative, my peers aren't doing what they need to be doing. And so I'm the the police here that's gonna hold everyone accountable, where ownership is really this purpose-driven. It's how do we all succeed? How do we all get better? How do we all go? And I think it just it's really powerful when you can get a group to the we stage. And I I Wagner Logistics is one of my amazing clients. I love them so much. And I'm actually doing this session for their manager's meeting coming up, but I talked about it in their they they just graduated a leaders' cohort, they're getting ready to start another one. And it was a group of middle managers when they learned the concept of me versus we, they were like, you've got to do this in the manager's meeting. Every manager in the organization's you've got to do it because we've got to understand that in order to thrive, we've got to come to this we mentality. And it's it's not intentional that people, you know, go into this me. Again, it goes to this scarcity, this panic, this change, this overwhelm. So there's a lot of really great that can come from the we mindset.

Rhonda Jolyean 19:55

Yeah, 100%. I think it's very interesting too that when we focus on the me, we turn inward and we focus on that fear and that scarcity. It's almost like the abundance mindset. If you think about that, is a more focused external than a focus internal. The focus internal would be that scarcity mindset, but abundance says there's enough for everyone to go around, which we definitely need a lot more of right now. Um, there's enough for everyone to go around. I'm gonna be okay, you're gonna be okay, we're better together. And that is a very external way of thinking. And yet I have to on the inside feel secure to do that.

Abundance Mindset And Ego Checks

Dr. Katie 20:41

So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It it is, it's so much. And when I talk about breaking down silos, one of the things is breaking down ego. Like you can't, and and I talk about leadership and followership as well. And to be to be a good we, sometimes we have to be a great follower, and that means breaking down our own egos. And I always say we don't all have to be the lying leaders all the time, like it's exhausting, right? Yeah, well, and and you know, kind of keeping this theme of change and you know, adaptability and everything, thinking about a question for you. I'd love for you to talk about how it's possible to reinvent yourself without burning out or starting from scratch again. I know you've shared in previous podcasts how you've done some of this work. And I know, I know from one of the emails we got from someone who listened to our career journey podcast, people are feeling this. So I would love to hear your thoughts on how you do that.

Reinvention Without Burning Out

Rhonda Jolyean 21:44

Right. There's a lot of with all of the change coming at us all of the time, we know that burnout is hitting a lot of people. It's greater than ever, and we're more susceptible to it, especially when a lot of us are turning inward and we have that fear and there is that scarcity mindset and the valley of despair that I talk about a lot with any change, it's harder to get out of. That's nothing to be ashamed about at all. That's human experience. We just need help getting up to more of the flourishing on top of the mountainside. And for those listening, I'm doing the little arm movements that I always do with the showing the nonlinear movement of change. I think it's important. Important for all of us, especially people who are prone to depression, who are black and white thinkers, all or nothing. I have to do this big reinvention. I have to, you know, be totally different, or else I can't. If I'm burnt out, I gotta change everything to have this new identity. No, reinvention is actually better and more sustainable when you take it iteratively. So I always talk about small chunks, or for those of us of a certain generation, we, if you remember, what about Bob? The movie, and he talks about baby steps. Yeah. So we say it's baby steps, just take a little baby step towards reinvention. So what's something that you can do, small little habits that you can do, or mindset shifts towards your growth, towards a growth mindset that you can do to try to reinvent yourself? So these things can be sensorial. So when we've talked about things around neuroaesthetics, how can you uh insert something that's art engagement into your day a little bit? Can you take five minutes? Five minutes a day. I'm not talking be an artist or take three hours a day to calm yourself and doodle or draw or color. Just five minutes, could you do that? Or actually, I was at a board meeting last week and a lot of people commented how I was doodling on the agenda and they liked it. And I said, Oh, well, actually, this helps you listen better. It's been proven to help you listen better. And also it just brightens your day and it makes it resets your mind. And that's something easy. If you're sitting in a meeting, you can doodle on the agenda. Or if you're on your computer, what kind of emojis can you find? Or, you know, I would actually, you know, recommend to people that they take a notepad and doodle by hand because that is better for them. And then also, you know, is it as easy as going to your desk at work? Because I know a lot of us can't work remote anymore and thinking, what are some things that could bring me joy? Is there pictures of my family, my dog, my cat? Are there some fidget toys? You and I talk a lot about the things that we fidget with when we are recording on a podcast. Yes, exactly. What kind of things can I bring? Just small things like that. And then notice after a week or so, how are you feeling? These are ways that you can slowly reinvent yourself. Again, these aren't huge identity shifts, but you'll start to think of yourself as someone who is more resilient, who is more creative, or who whatever fill in the blank that you want to be. And so I think it's also very important for people to remember that sustainable change uh honors what already exists and what already works instead of rejecting your past. So if think back to things that have worked for you in the past, like for me, I would never give up coloring and doodling because I know that that is just a part of my personality. Even if I've had bosses in the past that thought it was weird that I used markers for my notes, who cares? That's something that is important to me. So for you, maybe it's important that you listen to music while you work. And if that doesn't work in your setting, you bring your ear pods to work. You know, these little things. So again, I think the biggest thing to remember is take baby steps, chunk it out. You don't have to take intentional time off, even to recover from burnout. It's just changing those small habits to then redefine who you want to be towards that reinvention.

Dr. Katie 26:50

Yeah. Oh, I love it. Well, and it's funny as you're talking, I was just thinking about the things that bring people joy and little things you can do at work. And I I'm on the side of TikTok for whatever reason, where there's these nurses that are taking gloves and making little little like dolls out of gloves. Have you seen these?

Rhonda Jolyean 27:10

Yeah.

Dr. Katie 27:11

Oh gosh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to send you the TikTok. It is just darling. And one of my closest friends' daughter is in nursing school, and so I sent it to my girlfriend Lisa, and I said, it would bring me so much happiness to know that Riley is making these. And I mean, immediately she sends me back Riley's TikTok of these these dolls, and they are awesome. It is so amazing. They make me so happy, but you know, and I'm sure some people will see it and be like, uh, what you know, they're they're using a glove, like it's not a big deal. But to your point of whether it's a glove or markers or listening to music or smells, it doesn't matter if it doesn't bring you joy, if it brings me joy, that's what matters.

Small Joys, Neuroaesthetics, And Tools

Rhonda Jolyean 27:59

Exactly. And that right there, who knows how many patients that brings joy, and they're already using things that they have, they're not going out and having to spend a lot of money, which God knows we don't pay nurses enough. And they're, you know, using what they have, it's sustainable, etc. So that's a perfect example. I love that example. And if people need ideas, yeah, Instagram, TikTok, Google, AI, ask what small things. I mean, you could just say, like, how what are small sensorial things I could do during my day to bring more joy? What are little objects I can put on my desk, etc.? We have so many tools that can help us these days. We've really got to use them in ways that can bring more joy instead of just for work. We can use them personally.

Dr. Katie 28:52

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Well, this has been so much fun. We're gonna do another one next week because we got a few more questions. Um, and I know we can talk forever, but we had promised our listeners that we were gonna do some kind of micro episodes. So this is one of our micro episodes, and then next week uh we'll follow up with the remaining questions we have for another micro episode for everyone.

Rhonda Jolyean 29:15

Yeah, and if in between you have questions, please email us, direct message, put it on our LinkedIn, comment and review. On in your review, you can put, hey, here's my thought, but here's my question. And we would love to answer those. We can keep you anonymous if you'd want, or we can shout you out. Yeah, yeah.

Wrap Up And Call For Questions

Dr. Katie 29:34

I love it. It is perfect. Well, thank you everyone for joining us on this week's path to leadership. And we will be back next week to answer some more of your questions. Bye, everyone. Bye.