Assessments Without The Labels

Ever wondered why a test that “describes you perfectly” can still box you in? We take a candid, practical tour through assessments—what they illuminate, where they mislead, and how to use them to build healthier teams and careers. From CliftonStrengths and Enneagram to Myers‑Briggs, DISC, and Working Genius, we compare personality, behavior, and productivity tools so you can match the right lens to the right problem.

We start with the big caution: assessments are snapshots shaped by context, mood, and wording. You’ll hear how the Barnum effect makes generic language feel personal, why hiring on personality tests is risky, and how labels can accidentally excuse poor behavior. Then we get specific. CliftonStrengths reframes development around what energizes you and the people you lead. Enneagram offers language for core motivations and stress patterns, helpful for navigating burnout and conflict. Myers‑Briggs clarifies preferences but needs nuance to avoid rigid boxes.

Next, we shift into observable action with DISC and Working Genius. DISC helps teams talk plainly about pace, detail, influence, and steadiness. Working Genius maps six stages of work and shows which tasks give energy, feel neutral, or drain you—an eye-opening way to diagnose performance slumps and redesign roles. You’ll hear real examples of shifting work to strengths without letting anyone off the hook for essential, less-enjoyable tasks, and how to spot team gaps that stall execution.

By the end, you’ll have a practical playbook: treat results as conversation starters, not verdicts; avoid using tests for gatekeeping; revisit your profiles as you grow; and translate insights into clearer roles, better collaboration, and stronger psychological safety. If you’ve ever felt reduced to four letters or a colored quadrant, this is your reset. Subscribe, share with a teammate, and leave a quick review to tell us which tool actually helped you grow.

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Theme music by Emma Jo https://emmajo.rocks/

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Why Assessments Matter
• 3:12 Cautions: Labels, Validity, And Bias
• 5:47 Hiring Pitfalls And The Barnum Effect
• 10:17 Personality Tests: Purpose And Limits
• 13:32 Deep Dive: CliftonStrengths Examples
• 18:52 Enneagram: History, Use, And Misuse
• 24:37 Myers‑Briggs: Utility And Critiques
• 28:52 Behavioral Tools: DISC In Practice
• 33:52 Working Genius: Energy And Productivity
• 40:32 Team Design, Gaps, And Growth
• 44:52 Don’ts: Excuses, Boxes, And Harm
• 48:32 Action Steps And Closing Thanks

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:32

Welcome back to the Patch of Leadership. I'm Dr. Katie. And I'm Rhonda Jolene. And we are so thrilled to have you back this week, especially today's topic on assessments, which I know we both love assessments, but also have some kind of cautionary tales behind assessments too.

Rhonda Jolyean: 0:51

100%. I have, I don't know about you, but I grew up with the teen magazines of your. And I started doing assessments on myself since I've been 12, you know, since I was 12 years old. So yeah, it's been a long time. I still love them. And then growing up in, I guess, the careers that we did, that was just something I always loved. But just as a person too in my personal life, I love learning about myself, learning about other people. And I'm excited to hear about the personality tests that you've done and what you are. I know a little bit because we've talked about it, but it'll be fun to kind of see behind the curtain a little bit.

SPEAKER_00: 1:38

Yeah. And I had not thought about the teen magazines and all this, but I used to take all those assessments too in all of those. So it's so funny because I've always been fascinated about all the information. And from a self-awareness standpoint, it's fun to see. But then also there's those crazy ones where it's like, you know, just the most random stuff out there. And then as I move through, you know, my research and my doctorate, now it's like, now that you know reliability and validity, all that stuff, it's like, how reliable is all of this? What is the validity testing that it went through?

Rhonda Jolyean: 2:13

Exactly. And there are people who are doing, you know, research on that, and there are still studies coming out. And it's just good to keep that information in mind as people might encounter these tests in their everyday life and then on teams, whether you're a leader or you're part of a team that likes to take these tests and apply them to how you work together to better your team culture or your place of business.

SPEAKER_00: 2:42

Yeah. And I think it's interesting because there's so many great assessments out there. I always tell people there's so many great options out there, but we use them for different reasons and different, you have to understand them differently. And that's where I'm excited for our conversation when we talk about personality versus behavioral versus productivity and how we how we use them and apply them every day. Okay, good, good, good. Well, and and I think before we jump into actual assessments, we got to talk about what assessments truly are and what they're not. Um and I do think there's some cautionary pieces to this that I know we're gonna do on the front end, but we also got to do on the back end as well. But I when I think about assessments, you know, I think about them as not a way to define ourselves. Like it's it's not a label for us, it's a deeper understanding of who we are and maybe our tendencies or our behaviors, things like that.

Rhonda Jolyean: 3:46

I think that I didn't maybe in my younger years I knew that, but it didn't occur to me that other people were really bothered by that until I met my husband, who I won't reveal too much, but when we get into the Enneagram, he is essentially the Enneagram type where it is they don't like personality tests at all. In fact, he's never actually taken one, um, but I do happen to know what type he is. They don't like to be boxed in. So they don't like to be labeled in any situation. So even having conversations about uh groups of people or stereotypes about, you know, who he is as a person, I think he's fine with the role that he's in as a career. But other than that, uh, he really doesn't like to be labeled. And I think I don't know why, but I do know that he just tends to think that people can change and that people can also act differently in different situations, which is completely true. I tend to think, and I know we're gonna talk about this more, think about the tests as and assessments as ways of feeling seen and just having verbiage. When I learned that this, that the tests were a way of having verbiage that I could use to relate and communicate the way that I feel seen and how I see others, that was a game changer for me. But it's true, not everyone likes these tests and assessment. And so you just have to be cautious when talking to other people or when you are a leader, that's something to really think about is the people on your team that are gonna hate this.

SPEAKER_00: 5:33

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And that's interesting because we don't think about the people on the team that that hate it. And and and that that can also impact how they take the assessment or how we take the assessment. I mean, it's really a snapshot in time, and it's really this like, we got to be in the mindset, you know, how are we taking it? Are we taking it, you know, based on our mindset at work or at home? Or, you know, is this in general, or is it currently my moment? And so I think there's so many different things that we have to think about when we're taking these assessments, that it's it really is just kind of that how am I how am I feeling in this in this moment? What what's my my personality, my attitude, my behaviors right now, as opposed to this is who I'm always gonna be. Let's label it.

Rhonda Jolyean: 6:22

Yeah, and definitely maybe in this situation or the way that this specific assessment helps me talk about these certain scenarios.

SPEAKER_00: 6:33

Yeah, yeah. And I see them so much as, and and I like that it it explains as kind of tendencies or preferences or patterns as opposed to predictors of your potential performance. I I know I know a lot of people use these for hiring, ultimate hiring decisions. And that makes me a little nervous because it it is about tendencies, but it doesn't mean like I we're gonna talk about working genius, and I always tell people with working genius, just because it's your frustration, just because it doesn't give you energy, doesn't mean you can't be good at it. Uh it just means that it is just something that doesn't give you energy. And so I when I think about all the different assessments, and when people say, okay, we're hiring an insert assessment and insert label here, hmm. Okay, but do they have the skills and do they have the behaviors and the do they have the other stuff? Like, why are we just looking at that as the ultimate decision?

Rhonda Jolyean: 7:33

Right. And for me, when I was younger and I used to, I feel like a lot, well, I don't know, I can't say a lot more people have moved away from that. You would know more than me, because I don't deal with the hiring process. However, I haven't had to deal with taking a personality assessment when getting hired for a really long time. But when I was in early career, I did. I just thought it was part of how you got a job. Again, when I met my husband, he enlightened me to the fact that that was something he doesn't believe in because certain people, especially neurodivergent people, are not great at test in general. Yeah. So and you're already nervous trying to apply for a job. So that's something that you don't want to put on somebody. Also, thinking about how somebody is going to show up in a test situation is completely different than a real life situation. We don't even think about, I think it was Michael Scott on the office, talks about why can't we take into consideration people's vibes, you know, not just what they say and what they do, but their overall vibe. And that's true. It's really how the energy melds together when people are together as a team. And then also, there is this a lot of assessments use generic language. And there are studies being done on how that can cause what's called the Barnum effect. Have you heard of this? No, I don't think I have. Okay. So P.T. Barnum, who created the circus, he used to say there's a sucker born every minute. And the Barnum effect is essentially how when using this generic language in these assessments, it can make you as a person say, Oh, I feel that way. Oh, yeah, then no, that's me. That's totally me. And it can sometimes the language can be so manipulative, not in all assessments, but in a lot of them, can be so manipulative that it can sway you one way or the other if it's not written well. And so that is not a great indicator either. So we have to be really cautious again. And that's essentially the assessments are not a great way, as you said, to hire people, in my opinion. I'm just gonna speak for myself, in my opinion, either.

SPEAKER_00: 9:57

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think too, sometimes people use these assessments to excuse bad behavior. Well, that's just who I am. Like, that's my such and such said that, you know, and and it it it gives people an easy out where that's not the case. And again, with working genius, that's why I say to people all the time, like, you're a professional, you still have to do the work, even if it doesn't bring you joy or energy or happiness, doesn't matter. You still have to show up and do the work. It doesn't excuse behavior, it doesn't put you in a box either. It doesn't say, okay, we're only gonna pull you out when we need this strength or this skill or this whatever.

Rhonda Jolyean: 10:33

Yeah, I wish, or else I wouldn't have to do any logistics ever in life.

SPEAKER_00: 10:39

Right, I know. Me too. Me too. I wouldn't have to sit at my desk and do tenacity paperwork and check things off a box. I'd just be able to go out and just see people all the time.

Rhonda Jolyean: 10:49

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 10:52

Oh my gosh. Well, and I think too, people don't understand the differences. The there's personality and behavioral assessments. There's two different types of real assessments that are out there. And I think it's important for people to understand, you know, personality assessment is really focused on your internal wiring and your motivations. It often feels deeply personal and can help you understand why we think and feel the way we do. So that's like the Enneagrams, the Meyer Briggs, the strengths, strength finders, all of those. Those are more those personality assessments. And so I know we had talked about this. So I pulled up mine before the show to because I live and breathe and working genius all the time. So I'm really good at that one. But the other ones, like, I have to always remind myself of them. So strength finders, I'm in individualization, which the first time I read that, I was like, that makes me feel not good. And then when you read the description, you're like, oh, I like that. You're intrigued with the unique qualities of each person. You have a gift of figuring out how different people can work differently together and be uh productive, which okay, that feels good. Self-assurance, you feel confident in your ability to manage your own life. You have an inner compass that gives you certainty in your decisions. Absolutely. Also, my emotional intelligence score is is similar here, where you know I have pretty high emotional intelligence. It's funny because it's when I think about managing my own life, sometimes I think, who put me in charge? Who made me the adult? But okay, if you say so strength finders relater, you enjoy close relationships, 100%. Yes. Focus, you can take, you can take a direction, follow through, and make the corrections necessary. Stay on track. You prioritize, then act. This is hilarious because my working genius, my biggest frustration is tenacity. And so, yes, I can focus on things that I am energized and that are interesting, but if it's not, I am out. Um, and then my last one is learner. You're a great desire to learn and want to continuously improve, which, yeah, okay, makes sense.

Rhonda Jolyean: 13:08

Right. Yeah. And so I think with Strengths Finder, with Clifton Strengths Finder, which was developed by Gallup, which is a great company, and shout out to Lincoln, Nebraska, which is where I went to school, and that is where Gallup is based. I like this assessment a lot. I like that it focuses on strengths and not weaknesses. I for some, I don't even know what strength this is of mine, but I get really frustrated that they focus on the top five. So if you haven't taken it, they give you your top five. And there's 34 strengths. And that as someone who I think, well, I'm just generally a collector. And so I'm like, because I hear you say learner. And I think, well, I like to learn. That's you know, I think it goes back to what we talked about with values. It was very difficult for me to narrow it down to the top five. Just like I'm glad there is an assessment for this because I for Clipton Strengths, or else I probably wouldn't have been able to get down to five. So my top five are woo. So woo stands for winning others over. You enjoy the challenge of meeting new people and getting them to like you. That is, I mean, number one, absolutely. Activator. And this one is only action can make things happen. Only action leads to performance. This is interesting because I think this has changed for me. I haven't taken this for probably eight years. And I've talked about this before that your strengths in strengths binder can change, and mine have. And then this one I think has changed too because I do believe in this. And when I'm in a team, I definitely am the person that's like, let's we've visioned it, we've brainstormed it, and I love it, and I've ideated it. But then I like to help lift others to take the action. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to do the logistics, but the people who like that strength, I think, let's do it. Let's go. Yeah. Then I'm also a maximizer. And I've talked about this before on the podcast. You don't want to spend your life bemoaning what you lack. Rather, you want to capitalize on the gifts of which you are blessed. It's more fun, it's more productive. And I also focus on the strengths of others. So I don't focus a lot on people's weaknesses and definitely not on my own. And that doesn't mean I don't know I have weaknesses. I definitely do. But, you know, hey, I also know that, you know, what Katie has, and that's her strengths, and I don't have, I'd rather her shine in that area than me try to outshine her. It's just more fun. And that's so that totally describes me. Communication, you like to hello. You like to explain, to describe, to host, to speak in public and to write. And then empathy. And this one is huge. And we know it's one of my values, which is you can sense the emotions of those around you, and you can feel what they are feeling as though their feelings are your own. That's absolutely valuable to me.

SPEAKER_00: 16:26

Yeah, I like it. I like it. You know, it's funny because I think I need to go back and take it too, because it's been quite a while since I took it. But yeah, it is so true what you talked about. Cause I'm like listening to yours, and I was like, oh, I that's me. That's me. Um, and it's interesting because with strength finders, you can pay extra to get your whole list of 34. And I am like, yep, I need to know all 34. Yes, I need to know. In order, yeah. I need to know. Well, and the other one is so Enneagram's another one. And I had heard of it for years, and I know there's some people out there that just live and breathe and die by it. Didn't really understand it. The first time I took it, I took a free assessment of it. And I'm like, all right, yeah, that sounds like me. And then I had a good friend who does this for a living was like, oh no, no, no, you need to take the paid version of it. And it's not super expensive, but it also is not super cheap, but I paid for it because I want to see. And then when I got the report, I was like, okay, I could see where people enjoy this information. I can I can see it. And I think it it hit me spot on. It's funny because when people are familiar with Enneagrams, they're like, oh, you're you're a seven, right? And I'm like, uh, yeah, okay. I yeah, I don't know. But I am. I'm a seven with social instinct. I mean so sevens are extroverted, optimistic, versatile, and spontaneity, spontaneous, spontaneity, spontaneous. Why is that a hard word today? That is so funny. Spontaneous. Ooh, I was trying to throw 50 words together. Playful, high spirited, and practical. They can also misapply misapply their many talents, becoming overextended, scattered, and undisciplined, which I think is pretty. And then the last sentence that I'll read is they constantly seek new and exciting experiences, which I think, yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense for for me. So yes, I I am a seven, and and I still don't live in it every day. Like I, but I am like, okay, yeah, paying for that, getting the bigger report. And I can see where people who go through coaching with different individuals who do Enneagram, how this could be beneficial.

Rhonda Jolyean: 18:47

Yeah, I love the Enneagram. I think I learned about it in the early 2010s, and it's interesting because of all of the assessments that we're going to talk about today, the Enneagram is the oldest. It is actually, it goes back to the times of like the Babylonians and the Sufis thousands of years. And I know today it's kind of been in the Christian pop Christian world, I would say, has kind of adopted it as well. I actually use it the most in speaking to my therapist. So I my therapist uh he doesn't use it with me, but we again, it gives us a shared language to speak to each other. And uh it's interesting that you have a friend that does it as a living. I mean, it's not interesting, it's uh interesting that she told you you needed to take the assessment because my friend, who is a psychologist, uses it in her practice with patients as a shared language. And she actually tells people because she noticed that a lot of people were getting frustrated with their results, saying this just doesn't sound like me. But she told them, you know, it's better. The research says it's better if you look at all eight. So for those people listening saying, I don't even know what Enneagram is, Enneagram has eight different types, and you can be one of the you're generally one of the types, and there's different wings, and people there's a whole podcast dedicated to Enneagram. So if you want to get deeper, I would suggest going deep into Enneagram podcasts. But the Enneagram, Can be one of these eight types. And my friend, who's a psychologist, suggests looking at all eight types and then saying, you know, the one that looks closest to me is now I've done all of those types of things, and I'm also an NE aggressive. Now, one big factor for me is I tend to run away from pain. So especially in my body. So when I want when something is uncomfortable, and I can even apply this to corporate America, when there was a lot of stress and a lot of anxiety, when I was starting to feel burnt out of like by big projects, I would want to ideate and I want to brainstorm and come up with new things in my head. So being in my head is a much safer place. And that is typically an Enneagram 7 way to be. There's people, you know, I said my husband is, he is actually the complete opposite Enneagram number than I am. So for those of you that know Enneagram, you'll know which one I'm talking about. There's also, I have, you know, I can talk more about Enneagram 7 a little bit. I think the ones that people can relate to in the corporate world is Enneagram 8s tend to be those people who they're fiercely loyal. That means to their teams, to their friends, they also tend to be people who like to move up very quickly. CEOs, high-up leaders tend to be Enneagram Eights because they are very direct and very driven. Enneagram 4s tend to be the more creative. So you find a lot of them in the more creative teams. But again, these are all stereotypes. You can be, I mean, I have a one of my best friends is an Enneagram 4, and she was a senior director at a high-level tech company. So I mean, you know, but at heart, these are things at heart. So anyway, we could do a whole podcast about Enneagrams, but the I do want to suggest this book to people that want to get into it. This book really changed the way I think about Enneagram. It's the wisdom of the Enneagram, it's the complete guide to psychological and spiritual growth for the nine personality. Oh, it's nine. Oh my God. It's like one of those days that I we talked about how tired we were. It's nine, it's not eight. There's nine personality types. And I, it's it says spiritual, but it's more the psychological background as to why each type does what they do. And it's just fascinating. And again, to your point earlier, just because an assessment says maybe you grew up having interesting relationships with your siblings, like maybe you fought a lot, doesn't mean that you actually did. That just is a generic stereotype. So take things with caution, be true to yourself and be kind to yourself when you're reading things like this. But I will say that it really helped me understand what I do when, like why I distract myself a lot when I'm in high stress or burnout. It really helped me understand more about burnout and things like that, especially in the workplace.

SPEAKER_00: 23:49

So yeah, that's interesting. That's interesting. Yeah, and it's it's interesting that it's so old because I just really started hearing about it probably seven years ago. So yeah, it's it's something I will continue to explore, but I'm really impressed by the people that are like that know Enneagram so well. I mean, I kind of like I know working genius that are like, oh, you're this or you're that or whatever. So I think it's fascinating. And then the final the final personality one, which we don't have to go deep in. I think so many people know Myers Briggs. I think it's such a kind of standard one. I'm an ENFP, so extrovert, intuitive, feeler, perceiver. That one has never changed really for me my my whole life. So really big ideas at in actions, always have a sense of hope and goodwill towards others. So that's my my Myers Briggs.

Rhonda Jolyean: 24:52

Right. And I am also an ENFP. And actually, it's not uncommon for ENFPs to be attracted to each other. So that's I have a lot of ENFP friends, and it doesn't surprise me that you're an ENFP. I will say that Myers Briggs is an interesting one because even though that's the one that a lot of companies use and people are most, like you said, most familiar with, and it was the one that was based on Carl Jung's theory of personality, it is the one that people tend to say, I don't feel like this is me. I feel like I'm being put in a box the most. And it is because it is based more on that psychological perspective. Also, I have heard mixed uh research on if it can change or not. I believe that it can. And the reason is as we get older, there is a lot of research, especially a professor named Brent Rogers out of the University of Illinois, talks a lot about how as we get older, we shed neuroticism, which sounds like it's a bad word, but it's not. We shed that and it makes sense as we become more mature. So when we shed that and we mature, we find out who we are and we're more self-assured. We also tend to change introversion and extroversion throughout our life. Even though we are naturally one thing, it's okay for us to, it's that nonlinear. Sometimes we're more introverted, sometimes we're more extroverted, or what's the new one? Overt overted. I think it's like the flip between the two. And so I think that they can change. I also think that it might be that people, there's so much research and so much depth to Myers Briggs, and so I think high expectations of people with their Myers Briggs is that people it kind of throws people off a little bit. So this one I would say have caution about that. But I do think it again can give verbiage. I like the verbiage, especially around feeling versus intuit. See, I can't say anything today either. Yeah, intuition. You're right. Having that, that really helped me with understanding how I can, you know, or you know, the thinking versus judging, or I'm getting all of the categories mixed up, but you know what I'm saying. And then at the same time, it can still be really oversimplifying to people and them saying, Well, that doesn't that how I act at work is different than how I would act with my kids, you know. So we just have to be careful in labeling people.

SPEAKER_00: 27:42

Yeah, yeah, I agree. It does really feel like it's it's this or that, you know, with with strength finders, it's you you're here, here, and it's it depends on a whole lot of lot of factors where I where I am. There are some days. I mean, I always thought I was a wild extrovert until I met like Jenna Scott, and then it's like, oh no, she is a wild extrovert. And then as I'm getting older, you're right, like this kind of going back and forth. There's some times where I'm like, I can't wait to be around people, and there's other times I'm like, I just really would like a nap. That would be great too. Um so well, and then we'll jump down. And I know people are like, there's so many more. There's so many more. Like we could talk about this forever, but we'll talk about two different behavioral assessments, disc and working genius. And with the behavioral, it's really focused on that observable behavior and how we show up. It's more situational and context-driven, and really helps us to understand how we react and communicate and and collaborate. And so it's different than those personalities. And I think all of these can beautifully layer together. You know, it's that the more you know. And so for we'll start with disc. So disc I am an I, which is influence, and it's so funny because the the first description is the eye personality is not afraid to be the center of attention. Okay, yep, okay, enthusiastic, optimistic, talkative, persuasive, impulsive, and emotional. Yep, okay. The disc, this disc type, uh, will trust others naturally and truly enjoys being around people, which is really interesting that trust people naturally, because I'm one of those people that come in and you have my full trust. Like when I meet you, full trust. Like, period, end of story. I will give you everything until you screw me over, and then you're dead to me. And it is so my therapist and I are working on it, but it's so hard. Like, once you break my trust, it is so hard to get it back. And I almost wonder if it's because I just I give it to you as a I don't want to say as a gift because that's like not everyone sees my trust as a gift, but it's like no judgment, no nothing. Here's my trust. And then when people break it, it's like okay, thanks. I'm just gonna take my trust and go over here and not even worry about it anymore.

Rhonda Jolyean: 30:08

A little bit black and white, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:10

Yeah, and yeah, and and it can go into like you know, how I grew up and how I was treated. It's like there's so much to it, but yeah, it's I I've never been in the best part about that for me is even in the stuff that's been so hard for me, I still naturally trust people. I don't want to be a distrusting type person. I know there's other people that are very skeptical until they get to know you deeply, and that's okay too.

unknown: 30:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 30:36

But I'm just the opposite of that.

Rhonda Jolyean: 30:37

Right. That actually blends back to your Enneagram seven, because even though we're known for wanting to have these deep relationships and going after relationships for fun and all of that, we do tend to get disappointed because people don't match the energy that we tend to give in relationships. And that has been a common theme in my life. So I don't know if you relate to that, but it kind of seems like with that trust, that might have been some themes that you've seen show up a little bit too.

SPEAKER_00: 31:11

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's absolutely true. Yeah. So uh are have you done disc where are you on disc?

Rhonda Jolyean: 31:18

Yep, I've done disc. I'm surprised, surprise, also influential. But I think that disc is an interesting one. I know that teams really like it. I think visually it's easy for people to follow. I think anything with colors as somebody who talks about aesthetics, it's brilliant to have colors to be able, I mean, we are creatures who visualize things very well. And to have colors is great. I do think it's interesting to have the word, so D stands for dominant. That was always an interesting word to me. So I wonder how people who are D feel, but they probably like it. I mean, it does they feel like they so the description is driver, competitive, and doer. So I mean, I don't think that's a bad thing at all. I just think that's an interesting word. And then so we've already talked about IS is steady, and that is stabilizing, sincere, and patient. I always think that that one's such a nice one. And then it's not me though. Me neither. And then C is compliant, and that is cautious, analytical, and conscientious, which obviously we all want to be all of those. We know somebody who does this for a living, who gives these assessments for a living. And I know that she talks about how we are all all of these things, but we are more we have a strength in one of these. And yeah, so I think I can see this in all people that I know, but yeah, I think this one is a very interesting one too. And I'm sure a lot of people listening have done this at work. I know we've I did it at work at least a couple of times.

SPEAKER_00: 33:04

Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting because early in my career when I took the assessment, I was a very high D, like very, very, very, and then I realized it wasn't serving me. You know, it wasn't that kind of behavior wasn't, and that was before I really knew really deep into assessments and stuff like that. But yeah, when the first time I took it, I it was off the charts D. And now it's it's D, and then my or it's I and my DNS are pretty even. So yeah, it's fascinating to to see, but I think when you layer on, so you have your behaviors and then you layer on personality, you know. I have that kind of in your face personality, and then you add on the D to it, and it is it is can be off-putting to people. At least I could have been, and it was right, yeah. I can see that.

Rhonda Jolyean: 33:57

I I took it the last time 15 years ago, so I don't really remember what my next two are or what my next like the different the one, two, three is, but I know I was up there. It was number one, and then I think everything else was way lower. So it's not good to be extreme either, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 34:22

So right, right.

Rhonda Jolyean: 34:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:25

And we'll finish with working genius. Um, and I kind of say this for last because it's the one I'm certified in, I do all the time. I always tell people I wish it existed when I did HR full-time, because what I love about it, um, it it does fall into behavioral assessment, but I really think it's more like productivity assessment. And so it was created by Patrick Lincioni of the Table Group. There's a great book out there. But what I love is they created it based on his feelings for work. And I think it ties so beautifully because my doctoral research, I was looking at motivation and employee satisfaction, and this whole assessment and theory and everything came out of his dissatisfaction at work. He was finding that even though he was a very successful author and speaker and ran this great company, that he on the way to work, he would be dreading it. Like he did not want to be there, he did not want to show up. So him and his team did a whole lot of research on this and found that there's two types of tasks, actions, things we do at work that give us natural energy. So you can do them all day, every day. There's two types of tasks that drain you, and then there's two that it just completely exhausts you. Like you don't want to do it, it doesn't bring you joy or happiness. But as I said, I tell people all the time, you still have to do it. You're still professional. Like you just because it doesn't bring you energy and joy doesn't mean you don't have to do it. But what I love about the working genius is when we look at our low performers and when we have them do the working genius assessment, and we find out, oh, they're frustrated by this type of work. No wonder. They're spending 100% of their time or even 90% of their time doing work that does not give them joy or happiness ever. And then we expect it to eventually come to them. And it's like, no, it's just not going to come. And so when I did the work in genius assessment, my top two are galvanizing, which means I love to bring people along. I love to galvanize and get people excited about things. For galvanizers, we when someone disagrees with us, we actually get more energy because we're like, let me tell you a little more. Just a little more. So galvanizing makes complete sense. And then I'm a discern discernment, which is making decisions, trusting your gut, being able to assess the feasibility of an idea, which is really cool. So it's being able to just jump right in and say, okay, we need to go, we need to go right. But I always caution people sometimes our geniuses can fail us, especially with discernment when we think, okay, right is the correct decision. And then we realize, oh, we took our family 20 minutes out of the way because we weren't listening to Google Maps that we're holding in our hand. So sometimes it can take us down the wrong path.

Rhonda Jolyean: 37:24

But see, this is why it is important to not just label yourself with one assessment or to box yourself in because you and I are both Enneagram Sevens. We're both ENFP. And those two things are neither of anything that I am. Yeah. I, and especially thinking about Enneagram 7 as wanting to distract myself and run away with being in my head and ideating and visioning out. And we've talked about this before because your work in Working Genius, there's correct me if I'm wrong, it's a line the productivity phases, right? It's kind of linear, but it kind of is linear. And yours is really helps like churn in the middle, like yeah, basically like leads people in the middle. And mine is at the beginning. So wonder and invention, because I am happy to just say, I want to think of these things and I want to come up with these strategies and I want to cheer people on, but not in the way, like if you disagree with me, I'm gonna say, Oh, I'm sad, and like let's be friends, you know. Like I don't want to, I do want to win people over with my woo, but I'll be like offended if you don't like it, you know. And so I I'm at the, you know, working, we work, that's why we work so well together. But that's it also wouldn't make sense if we just said, okay, well, we're both in egram sevens. Okay, you know, yeah, you have to have those productivity pieces as well. And we have to have the different strengths as well because we don't have the same strengths on clift finders or clifton strengths finders. And that's why you cannot just take one thing at face value. You have to think about all these experiences and all of these different aspects, and we contain multitudes. It is absolutely true.

SPEAKER_00: 39:23

We can't just be one thing, so yeah, yeah, and it's interesting too with working genius because there are those different elevations. And what working genius working genius is is great in in individually for us to understand, it's really more powerful when we do it as a team. And so that's where I uh I love to go and I do have a program called Build a Genius Team, and it's where we understand where everyone falls and where our team lies. And are we missing out on invention because we don't have anyone in invention? Are we missing out in enablement because we don't have anyone on the team in enablement? Like where are things breaking down? And when we look at projects and behaviors and how we do things, it could be a real game changer in how we speak, how we hold each other accountable, all of those kind of things. And it it really helps when people know that I'm frustrated by tenacity because tenacity is sit down, do the work, check things off a list. You know, it's it's hardcore and it is awesome. The people with tenacity I'm so impressed with because I I will get distracted and be like, oopsquirrel, going over there. Okay, move on, move on. But yeah, I think it's a really powerful. Tool, but you're absolutely right. And that's why I love having this conversation. And this is what I tell clients all the time when they're like, oh, we've done disc. And it's like, I love disk, or I've we've done this, or we've done that. Great, great, great. These are great layers on to help us to better understand our personalizing behaviors. None of these define us. None of these say, okay, you can never do that because you're not this. It really is looking for those patterns, those behaviors, those kind of energy around people. It just is looking at kind of how we move through it all.

Rhonda Jolyean: 41:06

Right. And the layers that connect to other people's layers on the teams in our relationships. Again, it has helped me with my marriage. These things have helped me in friendships. It's fun to talk about the verbiage alone with coming up with uh different ways of connecting. I mean, the language that we speak to each other is how we connect, it's how we feel seen. And these assessments, and not only these, like we said, there's so many more that are out there, can help you gain that verbiage. And as long as you keep an open mind and understand that it can change, it's not labeling people, it just gives you think about it as reading a book and having a great uh little assessment at the end.

SPEAKER_00: 41:58

Yeah, yeah, you're so right. And I I think, you know, as you mentioned, doing the different assessments just helps us kind of pull everything through. But it's really important that we kind of remind everyone again to not misuse assessments. We don't want to use this to label people. That's just who they are. That's just, you know, what their label is. We don't want to excuse behavior. We don't want assessments to limit our growth or opportunities. I, Wagner Logistics, they're my fake favorite client. I spend so much time with them, and they are really lacking galvanizing. It is a definitely a struggle area for a lot of them. And their accounting department is awesome. And they were like, I had a meeting with their leaders and they were like, how can we get better at galvanizing? How can we improve this? And I think that's the case in all the assessments. Like, okay, I'm low in this area. How can I practice these behaviors? What can I do? What are the skills that I can bring to the table? And so it shouldn't limit us, it actually gives us opportunity. A thousand percent.

Rhonda Jolyean: 43:03

And I love that. And I like that they're asking those right questions. And that gives, again, gives them that language to be able to ask the right questions with you.

SPEAKER_00: 43:12

Yeah, yeah. And when we don't do that, you know, it can cause harm, right? It can cause, it can shrink people instead of develop them. It stops learning and curiosity, it can kill psychological safety because we're like, instead of this, we want to hear everyone's voice. It just undermines trust and and relationship building. And so I think there is a real caution when we think about assessments. It can stop conversations if we use it incorrectly. So we want to make sure that we're really open to that and really ask the question have we gone too far? You know, I think it's great when people, I'm just looking around because I had some little stickers that I did for for a group and they put stickers on their name tags, but that's just for conversation and for understanding. It's not to say, oh, you can never, you can never do this type of work because that's not your behaviors or personalities.

unknown: 44:07

Right.

Rhonda Jolyean: 44:07

Have be a little bit more I and any groom seven, just have fun with it.

SPEAKER_00: 44:13

Exactly. Exactly. And I think really just asking people questions to understand, making sure that we're revisiting the assessments and and paying attention to the growth, using them for communication, not judgment, just so many things. And and as leaders, really making sure that we're we're having the conversations that it's it's not a label, right? It's not something that that defines everything that you are. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So we love homework, right? We always like to give people work to do. So I I think really when I think about homework, is I would love people after hearing this to go back and kind of look at the assessments they've taken and what patterns are showing up, what kind of themes are happening, how can they better understand themselves and what might they have been limiting themselves because of a a label? And how can they shed that label and get that away from from them and and really look at it from growth?

Rhonda Jolyean: 45:18

I really like that as some a choice to do an option. I'd like I hate the word homework actually. But that's the that's the uh I'm sure there's some kind of assessment out there that has told me why I hate that. But I I like the option of doing that. I was also AI just popped into my head of maybe you remember some of the assessments that you took. You could put it all into AI, your favorite AI platform, and then say, bring out the top 10 themes for me, you know, if it's been a long time, and then make sure you play devil's advocate with it. And then you could say, okay, yes, these are the certain patterns, and then see if it shows up for you in the next few weeks and how that actually relates or if it doesn't. And you know, maybe you do something where you look at all 34 of the Clifton strengths and think, well, maybe I actually do relate more to learner than I do to Activator, or look at all nine of the Enneagrams, not eight, nine, and pick out the one that relates more to you or that you align to more instead of taking a test. And you know, nobody's there's no rules to this. This is something that, and even if you've taken it as a team at work, nobody remembers everybody else's strengths. You can do what you need to do, and this is just for your development. So I would encourage people to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 46:51

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. One of the things that attracts me to working genius is Patrick Lincioni says it needs to work for you. And so if you take the assessment and it doesn't work for you, they actually have a qualitative version of it where you can go back and retake it and you can re-assess yourself. And I don't I don't want to say relabel, but you can change it. And and I've done this over 600 times, and I've had probably about five or six that have said, nope, I'm not this, I'm this. Yeah, and I think that's such good work for people to do if they choose to, it's optional. Everything's extra credit. Um I like that.

unknown: 47:25

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_00: 47:27

Everything's extra credit. Yeah, so yeah, I can't wait to hear from people. I'm sure some people are going to listen to the episode, check it out, and then share with us. We would love to hear from you and share this. If someone you care about, or someone you like, or maybe someone you don't really like, you're like, hey, listen to this. And and hopefully this will lead to some conversations around personality, behaviors, and quite frankly, labels, how we label ourselves and others.

Rhonda Jolyean: 47:55

I want to know if people have taken any assessments that are really cool that we haven't heard about, or ones that we've forgotten about, or any cool quizzes, link them in the LinkedIn comments or the review comments, or message us, just get a hold of us and we'll give you a shout out.

SPEAKER_00: 48:15

Yeah, we would appreciate that. Well, and as always, we appreciate when people share the podcast and go in and rate and review the podcast. All of those kind of things really help us as we continue to grow. So thank you for everyone who's been doing that. And just quite frankly, for those that continue to listen and subscribe to the podcast, so you always get the download so you don't miss anything. Yeah, we love you. Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Well, thank you everyone for joining us on this week's Path of Leadership, and we will talk to you next time. Bye, everyone. Bye.