What We Wish We Knew And What We’re Glad We Learned

If you’ve ever looked at your winding path and wondered whether it “counts,” this conversation is your green light. We trade birthday cake for straight talk about nonlinear careers, hard-won leadership lessons, and the boundaries that keep purpose intact when the world pushes for more, faster, always.

We start with early ambition—the kind that outruns experience—and the moment confidence meets humility. From switching majors and industries to rejecting career shame, we unpack why generalist skills and learning agility are powerful in an AI-driven workplace. Then we tackle leadership: the difference between managing people and actually leading. Not everyone should be a manager. Influence, impact, and relationship-building can move work further than titles ever will, and we share messy truths about getting that wrong and how we repaired trust.

Burnout and boundaries take center stage as we redefine success. Saying no became a survival skill. Leaving misaligned cultures wasn’t quitting; it was choosing health, values, and a life we recognize as ours. We talk about entrepreneurship’s paradox—more pressure, better sleep—and why ownership can turn stress into focus. Curiosity pulls us forward: ongoing classes, new frameworks, and a commitment to keep growing so the work stays meaningful and the mind stays sharp.

Next week, we’ll dig into personality and behavioral assessments—CliftonStrengths, Working Genius, and more—where they help, where they hinder, and how to use them wisely. If this resonated, share it with someone on the edge of a pivot, subscribe for more candid leadership fuel, and leave a review so others can find the show. What definition of success are you ready to rewrite?

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Theme music by Emma Jo https://emmajo.rocks/

Chapters

• 1:04 Birthdays, Themes, And A Jubilee
• 3:07 Framing The Episode: Lessons Learned
• 4:47 Early Career Ambition And Humility
• 6:32 Pivots In School And Career Paths
• 11:17 Nonlinear Careers And Dropping The Shame
• 15:37 Generalists, Specialists, And AI Era Skills
• 19:12 Loyalty, Companies, And Personal Agency
• 22:47 From Manager To Leader: What Changes
• 27:12 Failure, Experimentation, And Human-Centered Work
• 31:07 Missteps In People Leadership And Repair
• 35:52 Influence, Impact, And Better Org Paths
• 38:52 Boundaries, Burnout, And Saying No
• 43:42 Redefining Success At Home And Work

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:32

Hi everyone. Welcome back to the Path to Leadership. I'm Dr. Katie. And I'm Rhonda Jolene. And we are so thrilled to have you back this week. Rhonda, as we're recording this now, after it comes out, our birthdays will pass. We teased this last week. So you just had your birthday. How was your birthday celebration?

Rhonda Jolyean: 0:51

It was so fun. We had an excellent party, lots of laughs, lots of play, lots of friends and love. And it's just goes back to what we were talking about the importance of celebration and showing up for people and taking those moments to remember what truly life is about and showing love for the people that you care about.

SPEAKER_00: 1:15

So yeah, I saw pictures and I love I love that you guys didn't just go play, but you like themed, like everyone was dressed. It was awesome.

Rhonda Jolyean: 1:24

I have to have a theme for everything.

SPEAKER_00: 1:27

I love it. I love it. And so the day after this comes out, I guess it'll be a couple days after this comes out. It will be past my 50th. So I turn 50 on the 16th, and I'm so excited. I cannot wait.

Rhonda Jolyean: 1:40

Incredible. What a milestone. What a blessing. I mean, some people would say you're at the back half of the century, but I just say you are looking great, and you've got hopefully 50 to 70 more years on this planet.

SPEAKER_00: 1:59

It's exciting. I was teasing with my husband because I was doing some research. And you know, like you always hear about the Queen's Jubilee. And I was like, what does that really mean? And so I was looking up, and it's like every 25 and 50 years, it's called a Jubilee. So I have affectionately called this my it is now my Jubilee.

Rhonda Jolyean: 2:17

Oh, fun. I really like that name. That's really fun. I love and your what was your word of the year again? So this year it's flourish. That's right. Okay, so it's your flourish jubilee year.

SPEAKER_00: 2:31

Oh, yeah. Oh, I like it. I like it.

Rhonda Jolyean: 2:33

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00: 2:34

Yeah. It's so great. Well, and that brings us to we we kind of teased us last time. We're gonna talk about, you know, kind of the mistakes we've made, the things we've learned. And we thought this is just a perfect time since our birthdays line up so beautifully for us to really take a moment and pause and do some reflection kind of on what we wish we knew and quite frankly, what we're glad we know now.

Rhonda Jolyean: 2:59

Yes. I mean, I feel like sometimes you cannot know until retrospect. However, when I when I talk to people in their early careers, I have certain things that I definitely like to pass on. And again, take it or leave it. But at the same time, I feel like the more that we can share lessons with each other, the better that we can help with that growth mindset that we talked about last time. And I still learn things, you still learn things that contributes to the growth mindset. And I don't, it's not even early career. It's any point in your career. I feel like you should be able to learn from the people around you.

SPEAKER_00: 3:45

Yeah. Yeah, I think you're so right. And it kind of goes to that, like we don't have it all figured out, and no matter where we are. And I think, you know, as we get through life, we think we have it figured out just a little bit more, but we're still learning, we're still growing, we're still making mistakes and and pivoting, which I think is is so important.

Rhonda Jolyean: 4:05

Yep, that growth mindset. We got to keep it, keep it going.

SPEAKER_00: 4:08

Yeah, yeah. So I thought we would start with early career and kind of kind of start there. You know, to me, when we think about early career, it's proving ourselves, trying to figure it out, trying to navigate who we are. And there's just so many pieces. Like when I think about me, you know, at 24, 25, 26, it was like, oh, young and dumb is what I think about.

Rhonda Jolyean: 4:36

I'm sure you weren't that dumb, knowing you, but I can see that you were probably, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, super ambitious and probably wanted to move up really quickly.

SPEAKER_00: 4:49

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And and my confidence didn't match what I like my stage. Like I was overconfident, which you know, there's probably an argument. Like we should have some confidence, but also we should have some self-awareness of you don't have to be messy.

Rhonda Jolyean: 5:07

Yeah, and some humility too. Of and that comes with that growth mindset as well of learning from the people around you, taking a beat to pause and understanding the environments that you're in, the people who have way more experience than you, and soaking that in, like learning from the osmosis around you, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 5:30

Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's funny because when I first started out, I I shared this with a lot of people. Like I'm probably one of the few people that changed my major in my master's program. Um because I really thought that I mean, I had such a great experience at Pittsburgh State University and I loved all my activities, and so I thought I was gonna work in higher ed. I thought I was going to go in and work for student affairs and and do all of that, which my life is a funny circle because I didn't do it and then I did do it, and and then now I'm like adjacent to it. But I went into my master's program and it was probably three weeks in. Oh, I almost said the professor's name. We'll call him Dr. A, but we'll we'll call him Dr. A. But he was like he called me at 6:30 on a Saturday morning and said, Hey, I'm calling all of all of my students because you guys have a test on Monday and a really big project due next week. I wanted to see what you're doing. Like sleeping, mind your business. And and then we get into class on Monday, and he is so rude and he's so disrespectful and so demeaning. And he said to us, he was like, you know, some of you are probably too soft for this field. You shouldn't, you should look at some other fields, you should look at human resources. And I'm like, screw you, first of all, like who do you think you are? And I'm like, I don't even know what HR is. And so my now husband, boyfriend at the time, like after class, I went went to his office because he worked at the university and was talking to him, and he was like, You would be really good in HR. So after my first semester, yeah, after my first semester, I switched to HR, which is hilarious. But so it was a it's it was a nice pivot, but also like, who are you to to behave like that?

Rhonda Jolyean: 7:34

Yeah, and I'm glad it worked out, and I feel like you'd be good at whatever you set your mind to, but that is a weird situation and experience that did set you on a good path, and you could have easily sunk into a fixed mindset in that moment. And who knows what the other students did.

SPEAKER_00: 7:58

But yeah, yeah, they all stayed in the program and graduated, and some are still in the field. A lot of them are not, a lot of them are not. And it just, you know, it's just so weird that that one fork in the road for me was was life changing. And at the time I was just angry, but now I look back on it and I'm like, well, thank goodness for Dr. A.

Rhonda Jolyean: 8:21

Right. Yeah, exactly. That's interesting. It's interesting that you say you changed your major in your higher ed program because I in your master's program, I changed my major, I think seven times in undergrad. And back in my day, back in the early 2000s, that actually was not something that was encouraged. And in fact, I remember going to my career quote unquote career counselor, which that was a joke. Right. In my school, in my college, they had no, I mean, what did they know? They had no idea, they did not guide me at all. And in fact, she every time I would in there to change my degree, she kind of rolled her eyes a little bit. So I thought, well, what are you even? What's your job? You know? And I do at one point remember going in and just saying, I want to be a motivational speaker. Because I just want people to be, I want to make people happy and excited and ready to take on life and be better at life. And she said, okay, just do communications, like literally just had me do that. And that was my seventh and final, you know. But of course I had three minors because I couldn't just pick one. That then reflected on my entire career and still does. Because for me, I was shamed by everyone, society, people around me, you know, uh jobs, even. I remember the last job that I applied for 15 years ago. They would even say, you have a very varied background. And to this day, I still have a lot of trouble getting over that, even though I like it and I'd much rather live with having lots of experiences. And I feel like today with Gen Z, they're way more accepting of that, way more curious. And people say, if college isn't right for you, don't go to school. And school is very expensive now. So that might not be the path. And but again, that was such a different time that I the shame still pops into my head, that negativity bias instead of the, oh, but look at all of these experiences and projects, and you are a generalist instead of a specialist that you can do all these things. And what's interesting is that same job that I applied for 15 years ago that said, Oh, tell like, you have so many, you've been, you've worked at so many places, tell us about that. And I would say, well, call any of those presidents or executive directors, and they'd want me right back, you know, and that was true. You leave a place better than you found it, like we've discussed. However, that same place that judged me, shamed me a little bit, and hired me, then at the towards the end of my career, had me discuss the benefits of a non-linear career. So everything comes back around. And I don't, I hardly know of anybody that has a linear career. I'm there are still careers where you can, and that works for people. And I'm not here to shame those people at all. I'm here to shame the shamers. We cannot shame people for what their careers look like, especially in a digital age where things change every day. And I just if when I talk to people in their early career, it is try something. You know, if you make a commitment, stay through the commitment. But there is, it's not even, oh, that old adage of people work for 40 years and then I retire. No, it's even if you need to pivot entire industries, that's okay. If you go back to college at 35, 45, 55, that's okay. All nothing is off bounds or out of limits. And by the way, it's you that gets this one magical life. Yeah. What are you gonna do with it? Not the people around you.

SPEAKER_00: 12:50

Yeah, yeah. I love it. And that's why, you know, it's funny because when I was naming the podcast The Path to Leadership, and everything I talk about, like the path is this winding road. And so, like our our degree doesn't define us, our first job doesn't define us, our you know, mistakes and missteps and and everything doesn't define who we are. And and I talk to college students and quite frankly, you know, high school students who are like, I don't know what I want to do. Like, I remember sitting with you know my kids' friends and my ne nephews, and they're like, I don't, I don't know, I don't know. And it's like, it's okay. You know, we we forget to tell people we didn't have it all together back then. We didn't know everything. I mean, when my undergrad is sociology and psychology, the reason why I chose sociology was I wanted to go pre-law. I wanted to go to law school, I wanted to eventually go into the FBI and and do that type of stuff. Funny path that I've taken now. Thank goodness I'm not in the FBI now, but I digress. But you know, it's still what I learned in college, like those skills, that sociology. I I mean, it's so powerful. And while I'm not necessarily using all of those today, I use so many aspects of it that I could have not even imagined.

Rhonda Jolyean: 14:13

Absolutely. And again, it's I think people like you mentioned, it's still people, it's ingrained in our society. I don't know why, maybe the industrial revolution of you have to do one thing forever. And there are still early career people who are shamed for it. But I'm hopeful that as I'm especially with AI, especially with the change and pace of how things are transforming, that you being a generalist is becoming more of the path. And because you're going to have to learn so many more specialties, honestly. So to learn more specialties, you're gonna have to be a generalist.

SPEAKER_00: 15:02

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's interesting too, because it's, you know, I'm just thinking of some specific people who have been with the same company their whole career, and part of it is really cool. Like, good for them. Like they've moved up, they've done the work, and it's it's so cool. But as I was talking to a girlfriend recently who has been with a company for 27 years and she's on her path to retirement and everything, and she's like, I don't know what I don't know. Like, all I know is this company. And while they have been very kind and generous and growth focused and everything, not every company does that. Not every company has the loyalty, and especially nowadays, like there's a lot of loyalty that that companies expect out of us, but they don't necessarily have the loyalty to us. So it actually is refreshing when you're like, okay, that's a cool company that really believes in their people, but you know, it's it's it's all relative, like you said, it's it's our own journeys, and so it's all what works and fits for us.

Rhonda Jolyean: 16:03

Yes, we have to remember that companies are not humans. Yeah, it's hard to remember that. Yeah, and that again, make a commitment. If you make it the commitment, keep that commitment as best that you can. And the biggest commitment that you need to make is to yourself and remember at the end of the day, you only have this one chance.

SPEAKER_00: 16:26

So yeah, yeah. Well, and I'm interested to hear from you, like as you you know, you got past your early career and you started shifting more to having more influence and being more of a people leader and and doing that type of stuff. Like, how was that shift for for you? What was kind of that experience?

Rhonda Jolyean: 16:43

Again, I shifted careers so much and had to learn very hard lessons around owning my own business. So this isn't the first business that I've owned, and learned about failure. And I think I've talked about this before, but failure for me is still I have um a love-hate relation with it. Even though I live in the innovation and creativity space, uh, I don't, and everything I do is human design centric. And we can talk more maybe in another podcast about what specifically human design is and putting the human at the center, but like what the exact uh design uh methodology is behind that. What that methodology says is you need to fail fast, and that's so that you can get to a better product. That's how it first came about is designers getting to a better product. For me, failing fast is not something that I actually love to say to people because the people I deal more with the human behavior side, not the products. And for me, I still myself and others, the word failure is a four-letter word, literally, and it's scary. And it's not easy to do that. And I like to say that you should experiment and be curious. And if you do fail, that's all right. And it's part of that journey, the like the path, as you say, it's part of that experimentation. You can't so many people. I I remember, I think it was Mark Cuban said, for every one business of his that has succeeded, 50 have failed. Oh, like he said it about him or him, like all of the entrepreneurs that he knows. And thinking about that helps me. Yeah. Because it's not as a type A personality, it's not easy to admit that. Yeah. So that's what I learned. I also learned that in a world that or in a society that rewards people managers, yeah, not people leaders. And there is a difference. Structured manager, the formal I help people with expenses or I do reviews. I am not someone who likes to be a people manager. I like to be a leader, and that means that I can lead projects, I can motivate, I can inspire, I'm a servant leader. I hate logistics. I don't want to help people. I always said at my old company, I do not want to help you with your credit card expenses. I don't want to, I want to be a peer when it comes to behavior change and help our clients with behavior change, because that's what I did. But there's absolutely no reason I'm just not the person that is supposed to, you know, help with behavioral structure when it comes to that formal management. And that was something that was easier for me to learn than I think a lot of people, especially people who have been raised, to think the only way you can move up is to be that formal manager. But I'm here to tell you you can be an individual contributor and still lead and still get rewarded for it.

SPEAKER_00: 20:26

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that's so important because the archaic structure. And I preach against this all the time because not everyone should be a people leader. Like not everyone should be in charge and responsible for people. It doesn't mean that you don't lead, that you don't have influence, that you don't have impact. But we set up so much of our companies where it's like, okay, you're an individual contributor. And now in order for you to quote unquote move up, you have to now take on the responsibility of people's growth and success and all of that. And I think we set the manager up for failure. I think we set their team up for failure when they don't have the capacity to do it, they don't have the interest to do it. And then, of course, I have to throw in, and then we just put people in roles and think that they're gonna wake up the next morning with these magical powers. Like not everyone knows how to manage or lead. And we've got to to train people. And I think in my career, I fell into the now, I did HR, so I should say I did have some capabilities, I did have some skills because of my uh school, because of my classes, because of my leadership, you know, through through college, some of the activities that I did, but I didn't know how to be a people leader in business. And so I was really messy. Like I was a really big, like, I'm your boss, not your friend. Like, I'm not gonna be your friend on social media. Like, yeah, you know, I I was very like, okay, this is what you see in movies, like this is who I'm supposed to be. And it's that, oh, you are that is not like the the younger me. I mean, the mistakes that I made by not forming deep relationships with with people that I worked with and that worked for me, like not understanding what they were going through. And old me, which I'm mortified to say this, was like, you're you know, you don't need all of these rewards because you get paid every two weeks. Like doing good work. I I know, can you believe that that used to be me? Like just a horrible, messy, like you get paid every two weeks to do your job, to do your job. And it's like, oh my gosh, I would go back to that 30-something me and just shake me and be like, but the the beauty is I learned some critical lessons, which has allowed me to get to where I am now. But gosh, that was that was messy. I mean, I got I got fired from two jobs because I could not do, I did not do relationship management well.

Rhonda Jolyean: 23:10

And how often do we say that people leave, and again, I don't know the statistic, but that people leave jobs mostly because of their managers. Absolutely. And I know if I was a manager, people I wouldn't be great, you know. Now it helps that on Clifton strengths, I'm a max or maximizer, so I know, and I'm a maximalist in life. I mean, look behind me, but I I am a maximizer. So I know what my strengths are, and then I know that, you know, I don't need to be good at everything. And I I absolutely know that there are just certain people that are meant to help with the growth of individuals. And that's not me. I can do it now. There are other ways for people, that doesn't mean that not all people can contribute to the growth of individuals. I love talking to early career people. I love talking, doing speaking internally and externally and talking about non-linear career. I love learning and consuming and then like on this podcast, and then telling people about what I do when the new things and being curious and helping others to be curious. And that has always done well for me. And then also, you know, just being there for people and being a cheerleader and supporting, and these are things that companies really need to understand that there are other ways to reward people for the growth of others besides that specific formal management.

SPEAKER_00: 24:52

Yeah, yeah. I think so much we should look at in companies influence and impact. And you can have that. I mean, we know people with some pretty big titles that it's like, oh boy, oh boy, what are you doing with that title? But they have that title and therefore they think, oh, look at me, here's where I'm at. And it's like, you're not actually having the influence and impact on people in the organization that that you should be having.

Rhonda Jolyean: 25:19

Yeah, those are great words, influence and impact, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 25:23

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think too, it's funny because as I as I move through my career and I think about the the later lessons, like the the woman that I'm proud to be today at 50, like the the this stage that I'm in. And and I know we're gonna talk a little bit about starting business, but just the like the depth and the boundaries and the alignment that that I've been able to get in the last, I would say, five years, like right before I started my company. I learned some really powerful lessons about boundaries and control. And I was always the person that was like, I don't want to leave my people behind, like I don't want to leave them. And when I left my last job, it was like, no, I'm unhealthy. I am sick. Like I am people would come into my office and they would like lay everything on my desk and be like, here's all my problems. And I'm like, let me take them, let me solve them. So unhealthy. So unhealthy. And I worked for an organization that didn't, I tell people I was not a fit for the culture. It was me because they were fine with a toxic culture. I was not right. And I you can't change a toxic pulp culture. So having to like know my boundaries, know what I'm capable of, and say, you know what, I'm not a fit for the culture. I'm leaving.

Rhonda Jolyean: 26:44

I mean, that's a formula for burnout. Yeah. That's definitely a formula for burnout. And for me, and you and I have bonded over this. It is us recognizing one of the lessons I've learned in the last five years, and it was before the pandemic, but I just the pandemic helped, and the conversations around the pandemic helped spur it for me, was understanding the boundaries around burnout, recognizing it in myself, recognizing it in others, and then giving myself the permission to do something about it. And it wasn't even myself. I have an amazing mentor who sat me down, didn't even say the words burnout, but sat me down and said, look, this is, you know, I'll keep that conversation private. But essentially what spurred me to do it. And I think more and more even early career people are getting into that. And I think it's great. It has to do with mental health, it has to do with boundaries, huge. And that, you know, whether you have a toxic working environment or you just you have too much empathy, you need boundaries on working too much, you maybe don't know what you want, and your mental health is needs help. You can be burnt out for so many or too many priorities coming at you with they maybe you have a great job, but home life is too much. You know, we need help understanding those burnout symptoms and then understanding how we can get help. And that's something that took me a long time to actually take action on. And there's no way that I would be able to be successful with a business or multiple businesses like I have now if I hadn't learned those lessons. And listen, it's still hard.

SPEAKER_00: 28:44

Yeah. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I know I was afraid to say no because I thought, you know, I need to say yes to everything. Like I need to be in the room, I need to show up. People need to know me. I need to like all of the things that we say to ourselves. And so I would say yes to everything. I was also like constantly on my phone, constantly on my email, you know, that for years and years and years, we would be on vacation and I would be fielding calls. And they weren't emergencies, they weren't things that couldn't be dealt with when I got back. But I needed people to know that I was working and I was there and I was doing. And it's like, oh girl, like it is not necessary. And to me, it like changed my definition of success. Like success now to me, which we've talked about, is you know having positive impact on others and leaving people better than I found them. But before, success was title and you know, how hard did I work and how many hours did I work? And and I had someone tell me, like, and we've heard this before, but really like say to me, like at the end of your day, do you want your kids to say my mom was always there? Or do you want your kids to say my mom was always working? And it was like, oh, oh, because you know, and I know there's people listening to this, I know there's friends of ours that will say, I work until six, and then I go home to have dinner with the family, and then I work until 10, 11, 12 o'clock at night. And it's like, is that the is and if that's your legacy, if that's who you want to be, if that is your definition of success, awesome. Right, awesome. For me, that was not my definition of success. That's not who I wanted to be. I wanted that balance.

Rhonda Jolyean: 30:33

100%. It's not my definition. And again, you have to think about your values, then think about what your definition of success is, and then put boundaries around that to ensure that you don't get burnt out. And if you start to get burnt out, then you have to understand what you need to do to get back into alignment.

SPEAKER_00: 30:55

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's interesting, you know, as we kind of think about, you know, uh us both starting our own businesses and and why we did that and and how we how we moved into it. I'm not sure we've ever gotten you and I've never got super deep into it both ways. I know for me, I I was not planning to be an entrepreneur, it was not anything I ever thought about doing. And then like I'm still I before in April, and I there's still so many things I'm I'm learning.

Rhonda Jolyean: 31:28

Well, I mean, yes, absolutely. Every day I feel like I learn stuff, and it's not just logistical stuff, which if you know, as somebody who doesn't like logistics, I definitely have to do logistics all the time. So you have to wear all the hats. Also, you have to be way more vulnerable when you are an entrepreneur and ask for help. And that is something I am not gonna. I don't like to ask people for help because I don't know. Maybe it's that Midwest mentality of I can do it myself and I don't need help from other people, not because I think I'm better. It's just not wanting to, I guess, bother people. I do the one thing that I did learn, and this just kind of comes naturally with my value of connection, is naturally learning from people like you who are female entrepreneurs, but it's mostly just doing it because I like to meet amazing, cool people and understanding what they do, but then you just inadvertently learn what the mistakes that they've made, things that are what they, you know, lessons and things that they value. And then, oh, I made this mistake, how would you do it? And then you just get advice like friends. So for me, it's kind of you know, the gathering of the friends and then, you know, the personal board of advisors, and then you that helps out your business in a way. So that's very important, and not and again, not in a structured way. I don't there's some people who have to have, you know, meetings set up with their mentors and things like that. Yeah, for me, it's more just like the friend thing, and that works for me, but I also, you know, have had to learn what I'm good at, what I'm not good at. I mean, sales is hard.

unknown: 33:22

Yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean: 33:23

You know, but and social media, we've talked about it. I don't love it. But, you know, there are certain things that I do love about being an entrepreneur that I didn't know that I would. And I think what keeps things bright and sunny is that curiosity and that experimentation and not saying it's going to be X, Y, and Z. And if it's not X, Y, and Z, then I have failed because that wouldn't work for my personality.

SPEAKER_00: 33:51

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I tell people all the time, because people say, you know, what is what is it like to own your own business? And I'm like, I've never had more pressure in my life, more responsibility, more stress. I've also never slept better, which is crazy. But I think it's because it's it's my it's my stress, it's my pressure, it's my responsibility. And and I don't wake up in the middle of the night as much as I used to, and which is amazing. But now it's like if I do wake up, it's like I can't control it right now. There is no, you know, running a business, you gotta do things you don't enjoy, like collections and hounding people for payments, and you know, being a small business working with large companies, large companies are like, we'll pay you when we pay you. And I'm like, well, I kind of need to pay my bills today. So if you could pay me today, that would be fantastic. Yeah. But waking up in the middle of the night, there's nothing I could do that forces this big company to pay me. So I just say it's on the list, I'll take care of it tomorrow and go back to sleep. And that is crazy for me that I can do that.

Rhonda Jolyean: 34:56

You're absolutely right. I didn't even think about that. How I used to and it had nothing. I want to make a caveat because I know that there's people who I used to work with and love still who listen to this and it had they know it has nothing to do with them. I I stayed as long as I did because of the human beings that I worked with. I wouldn't have been sane. But I used to wake up in the middle of the night and I would be screaming, what are you doing with your life? And that was hard for me to admit. And now, even though I've never worked so hard in my life, I've never made have never worked so hard to make not as much money. Yes, yeah, you know, but you're right. I sleep so much better because even though I've made sacrifices and not been able to do things that I've wanted to do or buy the things that I've wanted to buy purposeful, everything that I do is well, it's an alignment, right? Because one of my values is legacy, and I'm not spending my days doing things that I don't find contribute to that legacy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:11

That almost makes me want to cry. That almost makes me cry. I know. I sit here and I'm like, it's funny because in our our rundown of the show, we do do some prep, everybody. Um the bullet point is purpose sustains you when things feel uncertain. And, you know, it's just I now I'm like teary eye too, because it's it's through our hardest moments, it's through these hard times, it's it's that we're creating, you know, legacy for ourselves and for those people around us and for people that we come in contact with. And I think that is such a gift that that we're able to to do. And thank goodness we have partners that are like, I mean, it's okay, you got this. Like, you know, I I know yours is the same as my partner, is like, yeah, I believe in you. We can do hard things, and it's not like there's sometimes we have conversations where it's like, okay, but we still need some money this month. Like, we still need but but it's that when things get really hard and when it's like I don't know if I can do this, it's it's the people around us, those cheerleaders that are like, we've got this, you we're gonna be fine.

Rhonda Jolyean: 37:17

Uh yes, a thousand percent. I mean, I I will caveat with saying I am a privileged white woman in the Midwest, and I have a partner who does have a full-time great job. And so I wouldn't be able to experiment as much if I didn't have that. And at the same time, I am very proud and have worked very hard my entire life to get to this point as well. And so we're not saying everybody needs to be an entrepreneur. In fact, there are days where I even question if I should be, you know, not everyone should be an entrepreneur. We're just saying that you have to learn lessons. And until you learn these lessons, there are going to be hard times. And it is important to reflect back. And there are going to be situations in which things are going to be right and things are going to be wrong. And it's okay to admit the hard times and the good times and when things need to pivot. I mean, even since I met you, my business has changed, and that's okay. And our, you know, your business has changed and you have literally changed as a person. And we have to make those changes to make things work.

SPEAKER_00: 38:31

So yeah, yeah. I agree. And I think it comes back to what we started talking about at the beginning. Like everyone's path is different, and our our journey is not straight, it's not linear. It is that what works for you might not work for me, and what works for someone else. And and so it's we got to find, and it goes back to the values, it goes back to that growth mindset, and we got to constantly be moving along the path. And and we should be growing until the very end, right? It's not at some point we just sit in a chair and just I tell people because people will say, Well, you know, at what point do I need to stop doing leadership development? And I'm like, Well, think about it. Think about it. You put a car in cruise control, right? Or the, you know, now the cars that drive themselves, I'm not fancy enough to have one of those. But, you know, you the cars that drive themselves, that you gotta, you still have to maintain the vehicle because either you're gonna hit a wall or you're gonna run out of juice, like one or the other. And so we've got to keep growing, we've got to keep learning, we got to keep paying attention, or else we're going to eventually just sit stuck in a spot.

Rhonda Jolyean: 39:42

I agree with that, and that's a great analogy. And yeah, I when I retire, if I retire, I still want to do hobbies, I still want to do side hustles, I'll probably be going back to school. I always say, if you know, you're supposed to do what you would do when you win the lottery, I will be enrolling in so many college classes.

SPEAKER_00: 40:05

So yeah, yeah. It's it's funny because so many of my friends are talking about retirement and now they're in a very classical corporate type job. And I know I am very, very privileged in getting to wake up and do my stuff every day. I acknowledge that, but it's funny because I'm looking over to my left as I just got my textbooks for my finance class. This may be the class that. This may be the class that actually takes me down. Um, but you think about it 50, you know, going back and getting your MBA. And I've had a couple people say, I can't believe you're doing this. Like you have a doctorate, and it's like, yeah, but there's still so much I don't know. There's still so many lessons that I need to learn, and it's it's critically important to me for brain health, for for my own passion, for my own growth. It's so important to keep doing this. Now, we'll talk about it in October when I submit my last finance assignment if I feel the same way. But I think I will. I think I will. I can do my things.

Rhonda Jolyean: 41:08

It's your wild magical adventure. It's not theirs. Right. So you've got to do what's right for you.

SPEAKER_00: 41:16

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Well, and so as we think about next week, I'm really excited for our conversation next week because we're going to really talk about personality assessments, behavioral assessments. You've talked about strength finders a couple of times during this episode. We talk about different assessments. I love assessments. I we're going to talk about working genius and all kinds of things. So we're going to kind of dive into those and and where we should lean into them and where we're like, okay, that's good to know. Now let's move past it.

Rhonda Jolyean: 41:49

Yes. I if if you're listening, I would love for people to message us either through reviews or on LinkedIn, or if you know us personally, to message us and tell us what assessments that you've taken that you like, or what assessments that you hate, what assessments that you use in your Teams, or what assessments you'd like us to talk about. Because I, as somebody who is a seeker naturally and just curious, I have used probably every assessment out there. Although I did, oh no, it was you that told me. I was like, I just heard of this new one. And it was my energy levels. Yeah. So I haven't done that. Okay. So I need to do that. But I want to hear from people because I have my own thoughts and opinions and actually have done research on a lot of these. And there is a lot of scientific thought this day and age about what we should and should not pay attention to and what you can be a little bit more flexible with.

SPEAKER_00: 42:53

So yeah, yeah, it's going to be such a good conversation. Well, I am so glad you had a great birthday. I am going hard into my birthday as we're recording this. I can't wait. And we encourage listeners, like Rhonda said, please go in and give us feedback. We want to hear from you. We love when you go in and rate and review the podcast. It helps us get listenership and it also helps us grow and and really offer content that that you're interested in. Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you everyone for joining us this week's Path to Leadership. And we'll talk to you next week. Bye, everyone. Bye.