Introducing A New Co‑Host And A New Chapter

A messy, beautiful October turned into a bigger move: adding Rhonda as our new co‑host and doubling down on leadership that feels human, not performative. We open the door to our coffee-table conversations and invite you into a space where creativity, neuroscience, and lived experience meet practical tools you can use right away.

Rhonda brings a joy-driven approach to transformation that rejects rigid change management and embraces experimentation, play, and presence. Together, we unpack everyday creativity—not as painting or perfection, but as the act of connecting unlikely ideas, testing quickly, and learning in public. We dive into neuroaesthetics and why aesthetic experiences like music, movement, and museums can regulate stress, boost attention, and strengthen emotional intelligence. From social prescribing to team rituals, we explore how leaders can design environments that reduce burnout and spark better thinking, especially in a world reshaped by AI.

We also talk openly about imposter feelings, burnout from corporate life, and the courage to share the messy middle. Leadership shows up at home, in friend groups, on panels, and at work—far beyond job titles. You’ll hear about mirror believers, the people who reflect your energy and help you keep momentum, and how to build a personal board of directors that includes cheerleaders, challengers, and truth-tellers. The goal is simple: curate the circle that lifts you, protect your energy, and choose actions that leave others better than you found them.

If you’ve ever felt “not creative” or boxed out by formal leadership, this conversation gives you language, evidence, and small steps to move forward. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs a nudge, and tell us what you want us to dig into next—we’re shaping this journey with you.

Follow us on LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/rhondajhale/ and https://www.linkedin.com/in/katieervin/

www.jolyean.com

www.katieervin.com

Measure what matters. Lead with purpose. Take the LEADERs Catalyst Index: https://katieervin.com/catalyst-score/

Theme music by Emma Jo https://emmajo.rocks/

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome Back And Big Life Updates
• 2:03 Announcing Rhonda As Co‑Host
• 5:50 Rhonda’s Work And Joy‑Driven Strategy
• 9:42 Creativity Beyond Art And Everyday Innovation
• 14:02 Brains, Burnout, And Neuroaesthetics
• 19:12 Vulnerability, Imposter Feelings, And Research
• 22:57 Rethinking Leadership Outside Titles
• 25:42 Mirror Believers And Your Life Board
• 28:52 Women Supporting Women And Inclusive Growth

Transcript

Dr. Katie: 0:32

And welcome back to the Path to Leadership. I am so excited to have you all back today. Before I jump into today's episode, I've got to acknowledge that October was crazy. Did not get a podcast recorded in the whole month of October. Had really great intentions. But for those people that didn't know, we like my life crazy. We moved from Parkville, Missouri to overla to Olatha, Kansas. Not super far away, only about 17 to 20 minutes difference. But when you're moving a house, that's chaos. Also, my daughter had one of the coolest golf seasons she's had in history, but all kinds of trouble. And then Catalyst has had the busiest month we've ever had, which is phenomenal. So, all to say, wonderful chaos. So happy to be back recording the podcast, but even better, even better to make to put an exclamation point on October and to move into November. I'm so excited to be joined by my good friend Rhonda. Hey Rhonda, how are you? I am so happy to be here. I'm so excited. Yay. Well, and we were just chatting before we popped on. I mean, we had coffee last, well, it'll be two weeks when this podcast comes out on Tuesday, but really a week ago for us. And we were just sitting there and we were chatting and catching up on life and everything. And we're we're talking about all the greatness. And I'm like, uh, side question. Would you consider joining me on my podcast as my co-host? Think about it. And you're like, I'm in.

Rhonda Jolyean: 2:17

No question. No question.

Dr. Katie: 2:20

Okay. So not only are you joining me today, but you're joining the Path to Leadership podcast.

Rhonda Jolyean: 2:27

Absolutely. Yes.

Dr. Katie: 2:29

Yes.

Rhonda Jolyean: 2:29

Absolutely. I'm so excited to be here. I view it as just you and I getting together, having our coffee, and recording our conversations, which how cool is that? And I love bringing in an audience in on what we always talk about.

Dr. Katie: 2:45

Yeah. Yeah. I know it's true. And every time we get together, which is not enough. And so that's why we've got to like to do the podcast. So we can be even more intentional to spend time each week together. But it is, I mean, we can just go and go. We were at McLean's, which is one of my favorite places in the whole world. And you know, we're an hour and a half in. And the woman's like, I'm so sorry. We're getting ready to close. Well, that's not gonna work for us because we still got at least another three hours of conversation. So so yeah, we'll we'll condense our conversations. We won't make three-hour podcasts, but we totally could.

unknown: 3:20

Yeah.

Rhonda Jolyean: 3:21

I mean, if if the need is out there, let us know in the comments.

Dr. Katie: 3:26

Right, right. If you just want to join us for an afternoon. Well, and in preparation for our recording, I was going back because our mutual friend, so spoiler, we're recording this on November 13th. It'll come out next Tuesday, but it is Mark's birthday. I just made a LinkedIn post because I'm like, I never shout out people's birthdays, but it's Mark Schaefer's birthday. Like, how can he not? Yeah. Um, but he connected us, and then when I was going through and looking, it's been a year since the very first time we've ever met.

Rhonda Jolyean: 4:01

And it's insane because it feels I mean, the first time that I met you, it was one of those, oh, we've known each other forever. So then when I think about it, I think, oh, well, my friend Katie, who I've known for 10 years, and it's literally been a year today. That seems incredible. But also we always thank Mark for connecting us. And then people ask about it and they say, Oh, do you hang out with Katie? And I say, Yeah, she's one of my good friends. I, you know, and it's like we've known each other forever. So it doesn't even compute that that is today a year ago. I know, I know.

Dr. Katie: 4:42

Well, and I love the way the universe works, right? Exactly.

unknown: 4:45

Yes.

Rhonda Jolyean: 4:45

And we're recording our first official co-hosting podcast today.

Dr. Katie: 4:50

Yeah, yeah. Well, and and you and I are both such firm believers in the universe gives you what it's supposed to and how it's supposed to. And shout out Taylor Swift, numerology, everything the way it works, right? But yeah, for it to be, we were gonna record it a couple days ago, you weren't feeling well, I was having internet issues, and the universe was kind of the universe was like, no, let's just nudge you to the appropriate day, right?

Rhonda Jolyean: 5:15

Love it, absolutely love it.

Dr. Katie: 5:17

So, oh my gosh. Well, I cannot wait for all of our conversations. But before we like move forward, I think we've got to move back just a little bit. So you were a guest on the podcast in April, and you talked about your work and your, you know, all of the amazing things you do. But for the people who haven't listened to that podcast, what are you doing? Why haven't you? But can you introduce yourself and who you are, what you do, all of that good stuff?

Rhonda Jolyean: 5:46

Absolutely. So my name is Rhonda Julian Hale, and I am a creative strategist. And what I specifically am helping people do is get through transformations and reinventions with joy-driven strategies. And I really help people with creative means, because as we all know, in this age of disruption, change is only going to be coming at us more constantly. And for those of us who have gone through all different kinds of disruptions, whether it be burnout through work, whether it be chronic illness, seasons of life changes, corporate change management changes, we know that we are going to need a different way to change, especially in the age of AI. And so I'm here to provide creative strategies to help leaders and people do that in ways that actually resonate and more aligned and more human-centered ways. And I do that through anything from designing processes that help people to put the human more at the center. And then I also speak about ways that I was burnt out in corporate America and how I used my burnout to then transform into more of a beautiful way of living. And believe me, I'm still working on it. But that is in a nutshell what I do. And I also tend to collaborate with people that I want to learn from, like Katie. And yeah, and I also, just for people to know, I'm based in Kansas City. And yeah, yeah, I love it.

Dr. Katie: 7:34

I love it. Well, and I love because we, when we're together, we're always talking about creativity and all of that amazing stuff. And you really brought the gift to me of seeing creativity a different way because I always think, well, I'm not super creative. Yeah. Uh and it's like, no, creativity comes in so many different forms and so many different things. But the other thing you talk about is really enjoying the beauty and in everything and bringing the beauty to everything. And I and I just love that aspect that you always bring.

Rhonda Jolyean: 8:05

Oh, well, thank you. Yeah, a lot of people, well, I can speak towards our generation. We were raised, and I think the generations before us were raised to think to be creative. I have to be a painter or I have to be really good at art. And that is not what creativity means. Creativity is being able to think outside of the box, but not only think outside of the box, it's so much more to it. Having experiences, being open and curious to novel experiences, experimentation. You can be creative, even if you've never picked up a craft or any kind of art. We have to be anytime you hear the word innovation, that is creativity. Anytime you come up and you put, I mean, creativity is as simple as putting two ideas that are not supposed to go together generally together. And a lot of people don't understand, but should understand that a lot of artists, a lot of the most creative people steal quote unquote, borrow ideas from things that have already happened. So you don't have to come up with fully original ideas. And that is something I think it's just being open to things that could be new, open to new experiences, and then also really being present. And that's something that everybody in this fast-paced information overload world, we could all be better at. So that's what I'm trying to bring to individuals and teams, and also to break down the barriers that we all tend to have, but that we all really want to have more of in our life because we know, we know from a young age that we can dance to music and that we want to play house or play with trucks and toys and things like that. Play is so essential to what creativity is, and then we lose it because society tells us that we should, or at least Western societies do. Yeah. But we know that we still want it and we know it when we see it. That's something that we need to revert back to. And even, you know, I talk a lot about in ancient times drawings on the walls and letter writing and getting back to that analog is something that we've had forever. And so we need to just take a step back, get off of our phones. I'm not anti phone at all. In fact, I'm very pro-AI, which we do a whole podcast and we should on this. Yes, yes, and putting in how that is going to only bolster creativity, but to be a creative and to think create creatively, everybody has the ability to do that. And to acknowledge that is the first step in being a creative person.

Dr. Katie: 11:01

Yeah, yeah. I love it so much. And I love to talking about, you know, especially in our society and you know, our generation, I'm proudly 49. Well, 49 for a couple more months. I cannot wait to be 50. I like I will be 50 in January. I cannot wait to be 50. But I just think that's like, yes, right. We've we've made it. But our generation and how we think we're supposed to behave. And you and I are also really interested in neuroscience and our brain, you know, that panic in our brain to be like, don't do that, people will judge you. Don't do that, it won't be okay. And like our stupid brain, as Jenna Scott likes to say, is made to keep us alive, not happy. And what you talk about and what I talk about is no, our brain can also make us happy, and that's what we got to unlock.

Rhonda Jolyean: 11:52

Absolutely. Yeah. And I do a lot of creativity research. And one of the big things, and we can again do a whole, I think it would be interesting to do a podcast and bring in emotional intelligence and then neuroscience on that, and then I can speak on neuroaesthetics, which is an innovative cutting-edge research field that they're actually starting to build college programs around, which is very exciting. It blends the brain science behind the field of aesthetics. So think art, creativity, movement, dance, anything that is an aesthetic experience for people going to concerts, it's participating or creating aesthetics. And obviously, it doesn't, you don't have to be a neuroscientist to know that creating or participating in an artistic experience is going to promote positive brain waves, right? But now these neuroscientists are studying it. And what I love is thinking about how that can lead to higher emotional intelligence, how that can help in the workplace, how that can help in healthcare settings. I mean, there are hospitals who are now making it a mandatory practice for med students to learn about neuroesthetics and how that can be. I mean, they there's a thing called social prescribing where they are prescribing going to museums instead of just pushing pills on people, which that's again, we can dive into. I could talk about that for hours. But yeah, I think, you know, talking about people's brains and how we are our own worst enemies and how we can actually be our best friends as well, and how that blends into leadership, how that blends into our workspaces, and how we can use creativity, how we can use emotional intelligence. These are things that you and I have in common and that I can't wait to dive in deeper about.

Dr. Katie: 14:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the other parts that I love is just like you talked about, you're doing the research. Like I always tell people, you know, I won't talk about or, you know, do sessions or whatever. I'm not going to be a Google, you know, person on stage where I'm like, oh, you need that topic, let me Google it. And then, oh, I can write a script and then I'm just gonna, you know, spew a script. Like I won't speak about, I won't do the work in, I won't show up as an expert if I haven't done at least a year, if not two years, of research. If I haven't been doing, I'm not going to just pick a random topic, right?

Rhonda Jolyean: 14:42

Right. Well, what I love about you and Hub Love since the beginning is that you come from an academic world. And I don't think like I don't come from an academic world. What I do think is that I love and where I'm trying to get better at to be quite vulnerable here is to be more vulnerable. And I'm trying to put more of my own story into my work. So blending the research, which, you know, I speak to people in the neuroaesthetic world, but to be vulnerable, I'm not a neuroscientist. I am not a researcher in that field. And so sometimes I had that. I've never had imposter syndrome in my life until I met all these brilliant people in that field. And they're wonderful and they don't intentionally make me feel like that, but I just felt like that. But I also am trying to be more vulnerable and talk about my burnout from corporate America. And that's what people want to see more of. But it's difficult to talk about your lowest times. It's difficult to talk about having clinical depression in corporate America and trying to fight your way through that. But that's what I respect in other people. And I think in the society of performative leadership, that's such it's a refresher when we see it. And yet I uh it takes so I'm just gonna say it takes so much courage for people to do it. And honestly, it's taken me a few years to try to get to that space, and I'm still trying to get there. And so I respect you for doing that. You've told so many vulnerable stories, those are the ones that stick, they're sticking in my brain. I'm trying to get better about putting more pieces of myself in my stories that I tell. And I encourage other people to do that. And I think this is a space where we can do that too, because especially as women, that's something that we need to do. Um, like you said, you're not gonna get on stage if you're not living it. And that's I mean, living it can be the messy part. Right, right. But I think, you know, this is where we can have those conversations. And I hope that other people bring in those comments and say, you know, I've had that. I think this is the space where people can say, you know, me too. And this hopefully they can validate. And if they have it and it's just me and you, then, you know, maybe that's fine, you know. Good for them.

unknown: 17:19

Good for them. Right. Good for them.

Dr. Katie: 17:21

Well, yeah, and that's the, you know, it's it's funny because I do try to share the messiness. And, you know, it starts at home. I so proudly have the most amazing 21 and 23-year-old, and they know when I fail. They know, you know, my husband, he knows when I don't have success. And, you know, they're they're there to pick me up and cheer me on, but I share it mostly with my kids and the community and everyone else because the social media, you know, the the glamorization of social media. Like it's it's great. I love a good filtered photo where I look, you know, just fantastic. But that there's so much life that has lived before. And that's why I celebrate being almost 50. Like the mistakes that I've made, the path that I've been on, and that's the whole like path of leadership. We wouldn't be where we are without the mess and the missteps and the mistakes.

Rhonda Jolyean: 18:16

I know. And by the way, as we're talking, I've now come up with five topics that we can talk about. I need to know more about this too. And I hope other people do too. And even if not, you and I need to talk about it. But this is how we are. I'm like, oh, wait, well, every time that we have coffee, I have a list of things I need to talk to you about.

Dr. Katie: 18:36

I know, I know, and that's what's gonna be so cool about this whole thing, and that's really what we like you said, we want to bring people into our coffee chats, we want to bring people into, you know, I was talking the other day and I'm like, ADHD is strong in with me, like I can go a hundred different directions. So yeah, no telling where our podcaster will take us each each week.

Rhonda Jolyean: 18:58

I know, and it all deals with that leadership aspect too. And I think I heard this really great quote. Honestly, I think I was watching a TV show and it said, or listening to a comedy podcast where it said the some of the best leaders are the ones that never asked for it. And I feel like that can be everybody that's listening to this podcast. I know that that's me. I never wanted to be in a formal leadership role ever. And I think that's why leadership, when you again, I think maybe my generation, our generation, thinks about leadership in such a structured way. And yet, leadership can be anyone and it can apply to so many things. And so I hope that people who are listening can say that applies to me. Maybe I don't have that formal performative leader role or that structured role, but I am a team member and I can lead in this way. And I can, and it's not just even in a servant leadership way. It's I'm leading at home, I'm leading in a club, I'm leading in my friend group, I'm leading in my women's book club or whatever. I think that's something that I really want to speak to as well and have people understand for this podcast is leadership can look so many different ways.

Dr. Katie: 20:25

Yeah. Yeah. It really can. And I think the cool part, it's it's funny because when I was creating my leaders institute a couple of years ago, all of my speakers were women. And this very lovely, well-meaning, fantastic man said, Oh, so this is a a women's workshop. And I was like, nope, why do you say that? And he said, Well, all of your speakers are women. Well, bless your heart, right? Like, bless your heart. Um, because he thought, well, there's all women, and so of course it's it's a workshop for women, but truly, yes, we want to, we wanna share our stories, we want to lift people up, we want to give men kind of a peek behind the curtain of some of the struggles we as women have, but also give useful tips and tricks for everybody to be able to put into place.

Rhonda Jolyean: 21:19

Absolutely, yeah, just it being a relatable, vulnerable, messy in the middle leadership conversation.

Dr. Katie: 21:31

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I love to, and we've talked we talk about this all the time, like women supporting women, showing up for each other. And before we jumped on, you were talking about a panel that you're you're leading, and you you talked about some of the subject. So I want to give you like, let me not put words in your mouth, let me pause. Uh, because I really loved what you talked about, getting people on your life.

Rhonda Jolyean: 21:55

Oh, yeah. So, well, I'm speaking on a panel with others, but I was talking about how having these conversations are so crucial for me because you know, you have to have people, everybody plays a different part in your life. And you have to have people in your life who, and I can't take credit for this term, I wish I could. I once saw Julia Cameron, the writer of The Artist's Way. Incredible. If you ever get a chance to hear her speak, she's a wonderful, wonderful person. She talks about having people who are called mirror believers. So essentially, when you tell them something, they mirror it back to you. And it's almost the equal energy, equal excitement, and they validate that for you. And in that way, we have to have community, we have to have others, we have to have connection. And you are one of those people for me. You know, I have several other people, but not, you know, it's not always my partner in life, and that's okay. He doesn't always have to play that for me. And I think it's important for people to understand that you have to find those mirror believers. Then you also have to have cheerleaders. We all have different life board of directors, you know. And so for me, that's something that for this podcast, having those conversations, and you know, I I look to other podcasts to have validation and other aspects of my life to say, oh, yes, this is happening in the world, and this is, I'm glad that other people feel this way too. And that way it creates that connection and that community as well.

Dr. Katie: 23:43

Yeah, I love that. And I'd never heard of mirror believers, but I it it it explains why I'm so attracted to to you and to other people when the energy is there, when the excitement is there. And I I I made a LinkedIn post many months ago. Like I am truly, I want to be be everyone's biggest cheerleader. And like my my definition of leadership and definition of success is leaving people better than how I find them. Whatever that, whatever that, whatever that means for them, and to help them reach their success, whatever that means to them. And it's it's so much fun to be around those people that are like, yes, same, like rising tides, let's get everyone up to that level, let's support everybody. But then having those people around you that are like, you know what? They're not a good fit for my energy, who I am, what I want to be. And it doesn't mean that we don't secretly still cheer for them. We just it's it's not it's not the right time right now to have that energy around. And so still hope everyone's wildly successful, but choose to be around the people that that mirror and cheer and celebrate and and raise you up.

Rhonda Jolyean: 24:54

Absolutely. Yeah. And that is such a great that fits you to OT. Absolutely. And you are doing that. And that also makes me think of another topic that we can talk about at a different time.

Dr. Katie: 25:08

So yeah. Yeah. Well, I love it. Well, so we so we gotta jump off because we gotta get our list of going and we gotta, we gotta get started. But I am just so thankful that you are willing to jump right in and join me as a co-host. It just, I love doing the podcast. I love having these conversations and to have someone to have them with that is so so similar, but also so wildly different. I aspire to wear amazing boots. I just bought amazing boots because I saw you the other day in boots and I'm like, yay, I need more boots in my life. Um, but just even the way we think sometimes is well, sometimes it's in line, but sometimes it's so different. And we have different circles of influence and different circles of research and different circles of just history. And so I'm excited for us to explore that together and share it with everybody.

Rhonda Jolyean: 26:04

Yes, me too. I I think my words too were a thousand percent. I'm in. And it just again, I it was I had been thinking about starting a podcast totally different with a friend. And this is something that I needed for my soul, for my work. And I can't wait. And I would also encourage that if people wanted to on your LinkedIn, on the podcast comments, on my LinkedIn comments, tell us what they're interested in. That would be awesome. But we can also put out some polls of things that we're thinking about, but would love to hear from everyone. And then also, I would love to get more interactive with people and say, like, if we're doing a you know, vulnerable story, we want to hear from you all too and bring in some more of those voices to the podcast.

Dr. Katie: 26:56

Yeah, a hundred percent, hundred percent. So make sure that you go in and read the updated description of the podcast because all of Ron's information is gonna be there. Um, how to connect with her, how to follow her on LinkedIn. Always make sure that you're subscribing to the podcast so you don't miss an episode. Comes out every Tuesday morning. Make sure that you share it. There are people around you that this would be a good fit with. So share it, follow Rhonda's work, follow my work. But most importantly, as Rhonda said, tell us what you want to hear because we want to talk about things that are impactful for you and share our journeys and share our missteps. But more importantly, give you tips and tricks that you can just keep thriving and succeeding every day. Absolutely. Yay. Well, thanks, Rhonda. Okay, we're gonna jump off and we're gonna get going because we got a lot to create for you all. Thank you so much for joining us on this week's Path to Leadership, and we will talk to you next time. Bye, everyone. Bye.