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The Path To Leadership
We podcast about strong leaders, loyal employees, avoiding burnout, and raising profits building strong cultures. Everyone is a leader, but the path isn't always easy. Developing critical skills to build stronger, more successful and profitable organizations.
The Path To Leadership
Leadership Lessons from the Frontlines of Youth Development
Chuck Knapp's journey from aspiring late-night talk show host to President and CEO of Jobs for America's Graduates-Kansas (JAG-K) reveals how powerful leadership can transform lives. After 23 different jobs and years in public service, Chuck found his purpose helping students overcome barriers and reach their full potential through an evidence-based model that delivers extraordinary results: a 96% graduation rate and 86% of graduates in education, military, or full-time employment a year after high school.
The secret to JAG-K's success lies in relationships. Career specialists don't just teach 87 career competencies—they build trust with students who often face significant challenges. As Chuck explains, "It's not the stuff that defines you, it's how you deal with the stuff." This philosophy of resilience forms the backbone of a program serving 114 schools across Kansas, where diverse classrooms mirror The Breakfast Club, bringing together students from various backgrounds who learn from each other's strengths while developing their own.
What truly distinguishes JAG-K is its comprehensive support system. Unlike traditional programs, JAG-K operates year-round and follows graduates for 12 months after high school, ensuring successful transitions to college, military, or careers. Through career associations, public speaking opportunities, and project-based learning, students develop confidence and skills that employers value. These employer partnerships create pathways to internships, apprenticeships, and ultimately, careers—bridging what Chuck describes not as a skills gap but a "grace gap" in how we recognize potential in young people from challenging backgrounds.
Whether you're a business leader looking to develop future talent or someone passionate about youth development, JAG-K demonstrates how holding high expectations while providing consistent support creates remarkable outcomes. Explore how you can get involved at jagkansas.org and help build pathways to success for students who might otherwise be overlooked.
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And welcome back to the path to leadership. Super excited for this episode, I have another one of my Leadership Kansas classmates. Hey, chuck, how are you?
Chuck Knapp:I am great Thanks for having me on. It's always good to see you.
Dr. Katie:It is good to see you, and I told you before we started this I love the work that you're doing and it's so in line with my passion, so I'm excited to share it with the podcast listeners today.
Chuck Knapp:Well, thank you. We are excited about the work we do too, and leadership development is such an important part of our model. It's an evidence-based model in teaching these students the importance of leadership, community involvement, civic awareness. It's an important part of developing self-confidence, and I'm sure we'll talk more about that as we go along, but our missions certainly do align.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, yeah, they really do, and we are going to jump into all of that. I was telling you before I started, like it's so easy to write questions for this because I'm so passionate about it. So before we jump into all that, can you just tell people who you are, what you do? All that good stuff.
Chuck Knapp:Sure glad to. I am a Kansas native. I grew up just southeast of Augusta, kansas, down near Wichita. I've had 23 jobs since my freshman year in college. When I went to KU as a freshman, I wanted to be the next David Letterman. When I tell students that they have no idea who David Letterman is but Katie, hopefully you will remember him. And so, late night talk show host that's what I thought I wanted to do, started in radio actually after I graduated from KU, and then I quickly realized that I didn't want to be in this glass box. I wanted to actually communicate with people face to face and eventually determined that my calling in life was to serve others, and I chose public service as the route to do that. Most of my adult life was spent in politics and government service, and then, in 2016, I had the opportunity to become president and CEO of JAG-K.
Dr. Katie:I love that. I love that. Well, and you kind of touched on your career journey and so we're going to really get into JAG-K here in a minute. But the way we met and it's so funny because every podcast I do with Leadership Kansas people, it's like it's hard to believe it was just last year but also like feels like we've known each other so much. So can you talk a little bit about the experience and kind of what your biggest takeaways were of Leadership Kansas?
Chuck Knapp:Sure. So, as I mentioned, I've spent most of my adult life in public service and government and, as a result, I've had a chance to work for a number of elected officials three statewide elected officials and by virtue of that, I've been able to travel the state. So I had been in every one of the communities we visited in the Leadership Kansas program and had some familiarity with those communities and some of the challenges. The biggest takeaway for me in Leadership Kansas was really the importance of relationship, and our class, as you know, is a diverse group, different racial makeup, different political philosophies, but I think we all shared some common values Again the importance of relationship and networking and how you can leverage relationships and a common understanding of others to solve problems, and I think that's what the country is missing, frankly, right now is is we just get so entrenched in our own viewpoint that we don't take time to get to know others and listen to their viewpoint, and and I I don't think you can really solve problems unless you take that step, and and so that was the real value to me.
Chuck Knapp:These are people, people that you know. I'm hopeful that we will continue to have relationship for as long as we're here on earth, because I learned from people, not only about them personally, but about their leadership styles, and certainly there are different leadership styles in our group, not that one is right or wrong but you can learn from the way others do things successfully, or maybe some of the mistakes they've made, and so that is what I will value most from the Leadership Kansas experience.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, yeah, I love that and you're so right. It's funny because Erica was the first one of our classmates that I had on and she was like you know, if you look at our class, like if we all walked in a bar and didn't know each other, we probably wouldn't, some of us would have connected and some wouldn't. But now we're like taking over bars, you know, as a group. Yeah, even the first day, where you're kind of attracted to those people that appear to be similar to you and then, as you dig deeper, you learn all of your celebrated differences and the similarities. And I think you're spot on with our country within organizations, it's okay to be different. It's how do we be kind and learn and grow from each other.
Chuck Knapp:Yes, yes, and so I will value that, and it really is one of the things we try to teach our students too, and I do think if you have seen the movie the Breakfast Club, that could describe a Jack K classroom. We have a lot of diversity within our classrooms and students learn from each other and they also support each other, and I think that's one of the reasons we're successful.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, oh, that's so cool. Well, so, for people who aren't familiar, I had never heard of JAG-K until we were in class together. Can you give us a little overview on what the organization is and the students that you serve?
Chuck Knapp:Absolutely. It started in 1979 as Jobs for Delaware Graduates and it has expanded nationwide. There are now 39 state affiliate organizations of Jobs for America's Graduates. Kansas got the program in 2013. Actually, former Governor Sam Brownback brought it to the state. Republican Governor Kelly, a Democratic governor, has actually been very supportive and expanded the program, so it receives strong bipartisan support nationally and here within the state of Kansas, and what we do is help students prepare for successful futures.
Chuck Knapp:We have an evidence-based model that has worked in every kind of district urban, suburban, rural since 1979 in Delaware and we are teaching students career development skills, leadership development skills. There's required community service. We talk about civic awareness and we are really trying to prepare these students to be good employees and good citizens, and part of that is leadership. We do that through a career association is leadership. We do that through a career association. Every program and we have 114 of them across the state has a career association or a club, because a lot of our students don't traditionally join other things at school.
Chuck Knapp:They're not part of extracurricular activities. Now, some of them are, but many of them aren't, and this is their way to belong to something, and research has shown that you have a better chance for success if you have your own community and this gives them that opportunity. Plus, they get to run for office. They build self-confidence through the public speaking that we do. There's required public speaking. We go through resume building, job interview skills. We have competitions, we have a leadership development conference and one of the things we try to do is show the correlation between preparation, work and reward. And as you compete, preparation, work and reward. And as you compete, you're learning something.
Chuck Knapp:Even if you don't earn a medal, you still are learning skills, and it's been amazing to see the development in some of our young people over the years, who maybe started in middle school with us and then through their senior year.
Chuck Knapp:But I think one of the there are two unique things about us. We are a 12-month program, so even during the summer months, our career specialists, which are our version of the teacher, they keep in touch with the students. They get the students together during the summer months and then we have a 12-month follow-up program. So 12 months after their senior year, we continue to support our students and ensure that they continue on a positive path after graduation, and we do have a 96% graduation rate since we started in 2013. But I think even more important than that is, 12 months after their senior year, 86% of our students are either in post-secondary education, military service or in the workforce on a full-time basis, and so I think we've proven that we are preparing these students for post-secondary success. We don't just say goodbye after graduation. We want to make sure that what we taught them is kind of sinking in and it's having an impact on their lives.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, that is so powerful and I wish I knew about it. I don't know, is it in Missouri? My kids went to school in Missouri. Can any kid do the program? How do they opt into the program?
Chuck Knapp:Great question. There is an affiliate in Missouri, jag Missouri. They don't have as many programs in the Kansas City area as we do. We have about 30 programs in Johnson and Wyandotte County. We have 19 programs currently in Kansas City, kansas, and then we're also in Shawnee Mission North and Shawnee Mission West high schools.
Chuck Knapp:Students have to qualify to be in our program. They have to meet certain criteria. About half of the students in JAG-K are in the bottom 25% of academic class rank. About 70% of them are facing economic challenges. They're eligible for free and reduced lunch.
Chuck Knapp:But we also have about 10% of our students in the top 25% of academic class rank, which is also part of the model, because, again going back to the Breakfast Club example, these students learn from each other. We have 87 competencies that we teach our students, and most of these competencies are primarily introduced through project-based learning activities. Because, again, research shows that most students learn more by doing things than just being told things, and so we give the students real world problems to solve and together they leverage their skills. A student who may not be getting good grades may be a great communicator or actually may be organized. They just don't show it in their schoolwork and so they discover that they have these talents, and then they also teach other students about these gifts. Discover that they have these talents, and then they also teach other students about these gifts.
Dr. Katie:And it really is a wonderful way to learn and to build self-confidence.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, it's so cool, I have said for many years I sat on all kinds of committees in Kansas City and talking about skills gap and workforce gap and all this stuff, and I got to a point.
Dr. Katie:You know, in my research and everything I did, it's like I don't think we have a skills gap. I think, yes, we all need to keep learning and developing our skills. That's important no matter where we are in life. But I think sometimes we have a grace gap, and not just in Kansas City and not just in Kansas and Missouri. But it's that grace to say, hey, this person may not have come from the privilege of having, you know, business classes or two parents who are, you know, in a white collar type job or whatever, and so someone may come in for a job interview and look unprepared and unless we, you know, really get to know their story, I think some of those kids that have kind of had that harder life actually have so many more skills than, say, my son has. They just don't know how to share it as well and it feels like your program really sets them up for success.
Chuck Knapp:Well, certainly that's what we're all about. Simon Sinek says start with why and the reason JagK exists is because we want all students to have successful futures. We just happen to be working with these students who qualify for JagK at the moment. But you know something you mentioned. You know people don't like to be part of an at-risk program, so we don't ever refer to our students as at-risk students, but they are at risk of not reaching their full potential, and so we come in and help them reach that potential. And we do have students who have two parents and money that are just as at risk of not reaching their full potential because of other things that may be happening in their lives, and so we try to meet the students where they are and help address those areas in their life where they need extra support.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, yeah. It's just so cool and I saw one of your students speak at a women's event in Topeka and I know, through the program and what you all do, you really prepare students for that. So can you share a story or two about JagK students and what they do and the success there?
Chuck Knapp:Sure. Well, the reason I really got involved with JAG-K was because of a student. I was working, actually, in the governor's office and I had worked for DCF as deputy secretary of operations, and we funded JAG-K. So I saw the data. I saw the graduation rate, the positive outcomes, job placement all of that data looked good.
Chuck Knapp:But it was on August 27th 2014 at Concordia High School when a student named Zach told his story and I won't tell you the whole story but a lot of tragedy in his life His dad died, his mom kicked him out of the house, he was homeless, living in his truck, hanging out with the wrong people, he said, on a path to destruction. And then he got in the JAG-K program and he started to see that he had value and he started to gain some self-confidence. He ran for office in the career association and was elected president of his local career association, and on that day he told the governor of the state of Kansas that Jag K saved his life. And so that's when I truly understood the impact of this program, not only on the students themselves, but on their families. And so, a couple of years later, when the position came open, I was approached and asked if I had any interest in being president of Jag K and I jumped at the chance, because that's why I got into public service.
Chuck Knapp:I wanted to have at least some small impact on helping improve people's lives. And even though I'm not in the classroom and I'm not on the front lines, I do have a small part to play in the success of the program and the success of these students. And Zach is a great example of a student who changed his life. Now he has to engage in this right. I mean, we can deliver the content, but the students have to follow through and do their part, and he absolutely did. And 10 years later so he went into the United States military and he has had some amazing experiences through his service to our country in the military. He wants to make it a career. He's been stationed in Hawaii twice, he's married, he has a daughter and he is living the life that he didn't have.
Dr. Katie:Yeah.
Chuck Knapp:And he gives Jag Kay a lot of credit for that.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, and he gives Jack K a lot of credit for that. Oh, that just hits me and all of the, all of the feelings, and someone told me many years ago a lot, of, a lot of young people, don't try, because no one has no one's told them they could. And it really feels like the community and Jack K, you know, says, hey, there's opportunity, let's figure out what that is.
Chuck Knapp:Absolutely, that's a big part of it A consistent, caring adult in their lives. And again, the 12-month program, the 12-month follow-up. I think that helps a lot. But just, we also take a trauma-informed approach to our students and we understand that. You know they may lash out in class. It probably doesn't have anything to do with the class or what's happening. Maybe something happened at their home overnight or something's happening with a sibling or parent, and so now that doesn't mean you avoid consequences for your actions, but I think just understanding that there could be something else in play and giving them some grace, as you mentioned earlier, I think that's an important part of it. Relationship really is one of the keys to our success.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, well, and you think, from an employer standpoint and the work I do, you know this all plays into it and I know you all focus on employer engagement and relationships. So how do you all work with businesses? And then what are some of the benefits of partnering with you all?
Chuck Knapp:Well, employers, employer engagement is a huge part of what we do, because our, you know, one of our goals is to ensure that our students are prepared to go into the workforce at some point, whether it's after college or directly into the workforce and not only get the job but thrive in the job and move up on a career path.
Chuck Knapp:And so employers can help us in that endeavor by coming into the classroom and telling our students about career opportunities in their organization, sharing some of the obstacles they had to overcome on their career paths, helping us do mock interviews, judging local career development conferences and then, ultimately, we would love for some work-based learning experiences like internships or job shadowing. Apprenticeships are also sometimes available and obviously that helps our students. But employers can also identify potential employees through this process. Right now we have and this is a JagK thing, but we have one of our career specialists who's a former student, we have an intern, a communications intern, who's a former student, and so we've seen the value of our students. Adm is one of our platinum sponsors policy that says any student from Jag K that's qualified for the position automatically gets an interview, because they understand what we're teaching our students and how we are preparing them to be good team members.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, well, and it's interesting because my son participated in a career program at Park Hill South and he actually went into an internship with a local college in sports management. But I know there was hesitation and they always struggled to find employers that were willing to hire these high school quote-unquote kids. So do you run into that? And then how do you help businesses understand that they really should leverage this opportunity to understand?
Chuck Knapp:that they really should leverage this opportunity. We have run into that. Honestly, I think it's generally the larger companies that we have the most challenges with. Healthcare is a great example. I think the larger the hospital, the larger the legal team and they get more concerned about the 18-year-old age limit and some liability concerns. But we've been able to overcome that too. We've had middle school students that received paid internships at a hospital and so it can be done and it's just explaining the value.
Chuck Knapp:And obviously you need to be concerned about patient confidentiality and those are real issues.
Chuck Knapp:But I've discovered that if it's a cliche, but where there's a will there's a way, and if we can convince the employers that this is a great opportunity for them at some point, then they're more likely to buy into it. But again, there are some real concerns Construction, for example, safety concerns, and so we're sensitive to that. But we've also looked at virtual reality options for career exploration and those types of jobs like electrical linemen. Clearly we're not going to have a middle schooler or a high schooler climbing up a pole, but we found through technology we can introduce those opportunities and because of the workforce and the need for employees, I do think that companies are looking for opportunities like JAG-K to get more invested in our students. Hca, for example, in the Kansas City area and they have some facilities in Wichita. But in the Kansas City area we have done JAG-K Day with HCA and we've done some career exploration opportunities with them. So I do think many companies are seeing the value and maybe some of it's just out of necessity because of the situation with the workforce.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, yeah, I mean, there is such a challenging situation, you know, with workforce demands and all those things, and it's interesting too I read an article recently that this young generation, gen Zs, are getting fired at a higher rate than any other generation in the past, and so I'm on a mission to change the narrative around Gen Zs. Like I have two in my house. I think they have things they need to work on, but also they're so fantastic and we all grew up you know kids these days kind of conversations, and so I'm really interested on your perception of kids these days, and especially kids these days going into the workforce.
Chuck Knapp:So I think I've got four kids. Their ranges in age are 26 to 19. And so I've seen you know from my own experience think one of the reasons we're pretty successful with our students is we keep it real and we're honest with them. We hold them accountable. We also, I think, expect more of them than they expect from themselves. We don't lower expectations for these young people. They will meet and most of the time exceed the expectations if you give them the opportunity to do it. And so we have some students that don't want to be in JagG-K originally and they are the students who love it the most once they figure out that this is about helping them. But a great example, I think, of being honest with students is we've had some career specialists who didn't like to talk about the criteria to be involved in JAG-K. Again, you have to meet certain criteria at least six to be eligible for the program, and we used to call these barriers barriers to success, and specialists didn't want to talk about barriers and we don't focus on the barriers.
Chuck Knapp:But the reality is everybody has stuff in their lives. I've got stuff. You've probably got stuff, katie, and so it's not the stuff that defines you, it's how you deal with the stuff that defines you and we talk a lot about resilience. And so when I went in and talked to a group of eighth graders and we talked about the stuff and they realize that they have challenges in their lives. And so it's not about that, it's how do you work around it? Things are going to happen. You may lose your job. Well, that doesn't mean that you can be unemployed for the rest of your life. What do you do? You know tragedy happens and that's. You know that's tough, but we have to deal with that.
Chuck Knapp:And our kids, our students sorry, they don't like to be called kids they are a resilient group and if you treat them with the respect that they deserve, they'll get it and they'll rise to the occasion. And I think for the most part, that's why our students are successful and they are prepared. They understand that. Hopefully, they understand that the real world is not what they see sometimes in the classroom or at school, that you do have to show up to work on time or you'll get fired, and you do have to work while you're there or you'll get fired. And so we try to teach them those real world lessons before they get into the real world. But, frankly, a lot of our students are in the real world because they have to support their families and they are working. They're holding jobs, going to school full time, and so maybe that's an advantage for them.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, yeah, and I think it's so interesting. I think we underestimate what these younger generations have been through, have seen, and I love teachers. My mother-in-law is a retired teacher. I have so many teachers in my life and I love teachers. My mother-in-law is a retired teacher. I have so many teachers in my life and I also think teachers these days have so many challenges. They're not just. You know, back in our day you came in, you didn't have a cell phone, you didn't you know, you didn't have all the worries and stress, like we literally played outside until the streetlights came on and then your parents whistled and you came home. And kids these days have seen and experienced and done so many things early on that I think, create challenges for teachers in the classrooms too, Absolutely.
Chuck Knapp:I mean, that's one of the things that our career specialists deal with, as all teachers do, but because of some of the challenges that our students deal with, to be in the JagK program, it may be more pronounced, and that's where the relationship comes in. Yeah, If you build a relationship with a student and you can build trust, they know you've got their back. But they also know that when you're teaching them a lesson or you know quote unquote disciplining them, it's because of your love for them and your interest in their best interest and not because of some other reason. And so we spend the first couple of weeks I mean we're teaching, but the first couple of weeks is about building relationships with our students and you can get them to do a lot of things that maybe they wouldn't do for a core subject teacher because of the time we invest in the relationship.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, yeah, and I mean that's such a powerful thing. I mean I'm 49 and I want to feel cared for and appreciated in a relationship and you're going to work harder and do more for people when you know that they care about you. And I think, the power of this young generation, but also massive challenges. You know we would just fight through it and sit in the back and grumble and you know, then go home and complain. They'll say it out loud, which creates challenges, but also, I think, is very bold of them to say this doesn't feel right and it allows us as employers to one, teach them how to say it correctly, but two, to help fix it.
Chuck Knapp:Sure, and I think there's a balance there. I mentioned the career association. So we have local career associations, then we have regional career associations and then we have a state career association. So the top spot in our student organization is president of the state career association and we have elections and sometimes students will promise things just like regular, regular politicians that they have no control over, and one of the things that I try to do is give them a dose of reality, because that's what real life is.
Chuck Knapp:I wish I could just wave a magic wand and change a lot of things about Jag K, but that's not how the world works. And so if you're a student and you're promising that every student is going to have a new Jag K uniform, well, that's a pretty tough promise to make. How are you going to pay for it, all of those things? So I think that there is a balance. We absolutely 100% believe in student voice and choice, and a lot of the things we do are centered around those two principles, but we also try to balance that with. There are limitations. I have a board of directors. I can't just do things, we have budget restraints, and so I think again getting back to being honest with students and teaching them these real life lessons is very helpful to them in the long run, and we've seen examples of that over the years.
Dr. Katie:Yeah, I bet Such important skills. And before we get to my final question, which I ask everybody, I know people are going to be listening to this and saying this is really cool. I want to learn more, or I want to engage, and I'm going to put your guys' website and everything in the show notes, but anything that you can share out, like how can people get engaged? Support, what do you all need?
Chuck Knapp:Well, it'll be on the materials, but JAG Kansas jagkansasorg is our website and you can learn more about our organization. Obviously, there are a number of ways Volunteer in a classroom, host a visit of a JAGK program we are across the state, 114 programs. Obviously, we also will take donations. There's an opportunity to donate on our website. We just we want to help these students and help our communities. It's a win-win situation. So check out our website and there will be numerous opportunities for you to come alongside these students and help them and your communities.
Dr. Katie:I love it so much. I love what you're doing and it just it touches the heart of everything, I believe. So I'm excited to know about JAG Kansas but, more importantly, to support the work that you're doing. So, okay, so the final question that I ask everybody and I ask this question kind of to what you talked about at the very beginning like our journey through, our careers are not straight. We make mistakes, we have missteps. So, to the level you're comfortable sharing, what's the biggest leadership or career misstep you've taken?
Chuck Knapp:Yeah, I thought about that and I had a career misstep in mind and then I realized it was a misstep but I learned from it and I think that's a key. It was really a job situation where I went into another job because it was comfortable and I knew it wasn't going to be a good fit and I knew that ultimately it probably wouldn't work out, but I wouldn't have to move my family and I knew the job and it didn't work out. And so I wish I wouldn't have taken the easy approach to that. And then I think, just generally speaking, I read Patrick Lincione's the Motive and I have tried to be a servant leader, but there have been a couple of times when I have forgotten that principle and I think that's detrimental to the organization. And you know, I think that's detrimental to the organization where it was more about me than about the team. And so you know, I regret that I work on it and I'm still working on it sometimes.
Dr. Katie:Right, right. I love that. I think it's so important. And you know, I tell people all the time. You know you can't put your leadership development on cruise control, because you'll either run out of gas or hit a wall. So you got to keep doing the work.
Chuck Knapp:Yes, yes, every day is a new day to learn and improve, and that's what we try to do. We're not perfect, but we are trying to do our best.
Dr. Katie:I bet, I bet. Well, I appreciate you so much, the work you're doing, the amazing students that you're serving and will serve and have served. Thank you so much for your time and sharing JAG Kansas with us.
Chuck Knapp:Thank you, katie, appreciate it.
Dr. Katie:All right, everyone. Thanks for joining me on the path to leadership and I will talk to you next time. Bye, everyone.
