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The Path To Leadership
We podcast about strong leaders, loyal employees, avoiding burnout, and raising profits building strong cultures. Everyone is a leader, but the path isn't always easy. Developing critical skills to build stronger, more successful and profitable organizations.
The Path To Leadership
Brad Douglas's Journey: Embracing Change and Driving Impact
Prepare to be inspired as Brad Douglas, a multitalented leader with a background as diverse as it is impressive, shares his journey from concert-level pianist to influential positions in law, politics, and business. Brad's story is a remarkable testament to the power of adaptability and personal growth. Hear how his experiences as an attorney, lobbyist, and Senate staffer, coupled with his time at the U.S. Small Business Administration during the Clinton White House, have shaped his unique leadership philosophy. Moreover, discover how fatherhood inspired his return to the Midwest, where he continued to make a significant impact in both public and private sectors.
Brad opens up about the essential roles and responsibilities of leaders, shedding light on the critical components of setting a clear vision, empowering the right team, and cultivating a positive organizational culture. Learn how these elements, along with the often-undervalued art of managing upwards and seizing opportunities, are key to driving successful leadership. Brad's insights offer valuable guidance for leaders striving to inspire and align their teams within the complexities of today's organizational landscapes.
As the discussion shifts to board governance, Brad's passion becomes palpable. His transformation into a "board governance geek" provides an engaging narrative that underscores the importance of effective communication and genuine involvement in board settings. Brad delves into the intricacies of serving on boards, sharing personal stories that highlight the importance of honest communication and setting limits for full commitment. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for anyone looking to master the art of leadership and governance, with Brad's personal anecdotes making it a truly captivating listen.
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Back to the path to leadership. I am so excited for my guest today. I have to tell you I met him one time and we could have. I think we only had scheduled an hour and we went for two, two and a half, so we can talk for days. So we'll try to keep it under an hour.
Brad Douglas:That's because I like to talk and hear my voice.
Dr. Katie Ervin:I like hearing your voice too. I am excited to introduce everyone to you. Hey, Brad, how are you?
Brad Douglas:I'm good, Katie, and I'm very excited to be here with you today. I just felt the same way about you when I first met you, and I'm so excited for what you're doing with Catalyst. We just have a lot of things that we share in common in terms of how we view leadership.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, we really do. And it's always so fun when you sit down with someone and hear their stories and then you're like, oh, that is so cool, and then we start talking about leadership kind of philosophy and how we do things and it just meshes so beautifully.
Brad Douglas:Yeah, yeah, I agree, yeah, yeah, I agree.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, Well, before we jump into all of that great stuff, can you tell everyone just kind of who you are?
Brad Douglas:what you do all of that good stuff. Well, my name is Brad Douglas. I today am a consultant and a coach for boards of directors, for CEOs or for just leaders of companies for CEOs or for just leaders of companies.
Brad Douglas:Yeah, I have my own LLC and it's called Crescendo and that's where I do my coaching, because it's one-on-one coaching with executives, and I also am part of a remarkable group of people called Plex Corp. It's spelled P-L-X but it's Plex Corp, and we are all CEOs or former CEOs and we call ourselves the McKinsey Consulting Group of Kansas City. So we help companies get to the next level or help solve problems.
Dr. Katie Ervin:I love it and you know it's so funny because before we've met I heard of PlexCorp from. Anyone who listens to the show knows I love Linda Endicott. She is heaven.
Brad Douglas:We are so lucky to have her as a partner and the roster. I invite people to go to plxcorpcom because the roster of our partners is I'm the mutt of the group. They allow me to sort of order lunches and serve them while they all have their partner meetings, you know.
Dr. Katie Ervin:It is an impressive group, but I don't believe that about you.
Brad Douglas:It's great people.
Dr. Katie Ervin:That's so cool. So can you talk a little bit about your career journey and kind of what got you here where you are today?
Brad Douglas:So do you want the resume type approach on?
Dr. Katie Ervin:this, yeah, yeah, let's do it.
Brad Douglas:Um, because I, I, I could answer it two ways. I could talk about leadership journey. I've always enjoyed leadership, um and I, you know, starting back when I was a kid, I was highly competitive and I confused winning with leading. But later on you figure out, oh no, that's not being a leader Started in high school, college, law school, and I was very fortunate to have mentors throughout my career, almost all of them women, business leaders, by the way. In my career but I tell people I'm a mutt I was given the opportunity to build several skill sets in the public, private and non-profit sectors, and those experiences prepared me to be able to bring value and experience to boards of directors today, to running large organizations and to developing talent and culture. So my journey and I'll give you a quick overview and I can go down any rabbit hole you want.
Dr. Katie Ervin:I can't wait.
Brad Douglas:I started as a concert level pianist, who then you're going to hear lots of pivots. I mean it when I say I'm a mutt. I started as a pianist and then went to law school, became an attorney and then I moved to DC and became a DC lobbyist and had an incredible mentor in that role for several years, learned how to go get money from Congress and then decided I loved the Hill so much Capitol Hill that I went up and worked in the Senate and became a Senate staffer and then was tapped by the governor of Missouri to lead the DC office for the state of Missouri and become its head lobbyist. I was also the governor's appointee, so I was doing the politics with the congressional delegation and at the time it was the Clinton White House the Clinton White House. Eventually I got to know them. They got to watch how I was helping our governor and said would you ever be interested in joining us? And I said yes, I would, and so I. They put me at the US Small Business Administration and I ran congressional and legislative affairs there for a few years and then we got a new cabinet secretary who came in and ran the SBA another woman business leader and I was one of the few people one of three people that I had to get her confirmed, that she got to know me and she tapped me to run all operations nationally for the US Small Business Administration. So I went overnight from a staff of 15 people to a staff of 2,460.
Brad Douglas:Made some good decisions and surrounded myself, fortunately, with people who were a lot smarter than me. Uh, and we did real well. Um, but at that point we were have, I had met my wife, barb, and we had three babies and I was wanting to be, uh, home for dinner and, um, really being a dad changed me. So I said to her, to Barb, what would you think about moving back home to the Midwest? She said okay, which was an unbelievable sacrifice because her whole family's in DC. And I got a White House appointment to come back here in 1999 to Kansas City and was the head of small business issues for the White House in the four state region, issues for the White House in the four-state region. And then my former boss at the SBA called and said would you run the SBA out there? We're going to make a change at the top in the region and I said I don't like to give up this gig. But I can do both and the White House let me do that.
Brad Douglas:So in 2000, when Bush-Gore came along, I, right before the election, made the jump to Cerner because they were looking for their first ever lobbyist and I had the opportunity for almost three years there to build public affairs and I really enjoyed that job. For a while it was a wonderful time to be at Cerner and then jumped into the nonprofit sector at the Greater Kansas City Community Foundation Again another pivot where I headed up business development for several years and um following. Following the nonprofit sector, I headed up sales for two different private companies and um had started sitting on a lot of boards by that point. I had deep networks in both the business and the philanthropic communities in the region and got a call one day to sit on a board of this thing called a credit union. And I had no idea what a credit union was. But a friend of mine who I actually had lunch with today, the woman that introduced me to Community America Credit Union, had gone to work there and she ended up being their chief strategic officer many years later. But I got a phone call asking if I'd be willing to sit on their board because of my network in the business communities and also my political background, because I was in DC for a lot of years, and so I went on this board thinking I'd be on there for a year or so and just give it a try, and fell in love with credit unions, fell in love with their business model, fell in love with Community America, eventually chaired that board for many years and picked their current CEO and started speaking around the industry because I found I just love that business model, found I just loved that business model, and was eventually tapped to become the head of the trade association that services all of the credit unions across Kansas and Missouri and had a dream job.
Brad Douglas:We became so successful that we became sort of this juggernaut, because I got to build the culture that I'd always wanted to build and I absolutely attribute our success to that and our members were very happy. We had 180 credit unions that we were working with and a staff of 50 in five offices across the two states, and we became the target of a much larger trade association and they eventually succeeded in convincing enough board members to merge us. So I had to decide what I'm going to do. I had a golden parachute. I was not going to be the survivor because we were the smaller of the two trade associations and I had to make a decision Am I going to do more CEO work or am I going to be, uh, do more ceo work or am I going to um be working with who I want to work with, doing what I want to do that brings me joy, and doing it when I want to do it.
Brad Douglas:And, by the way, I had some runway. So I got convinced to go that route and eventually joined plex corp. They they had reached out to me before I ever um went through the merger. So that's how I ended up at Plex. And then I got started getting approached from leaders in town saying have you ever thought about being an executive coach? And I finally said yes to one of them, and that was two years ago. And now I have coached almost 20 different business leaders around the country and some CEOs here in Kansas City, and I'm just loving it. I'm just having a ball with what I'm doing.
Dr. Katie Ervin:That is so cool and I love your story of the pivots and the movements and the, because I think it's so important to be open to the universe and what's available out there and not be so focused on. This is the road I'm supposed to take.
Brad Douglas:Yeah, no, and, and honestly I think in you know we're discussing leadership right. I think to be a good leader you have to have a lot of experience. I think all of those experiences prepared me to be a really effective and meaningful business coach and leadership coach. It also allows me to provide wisdom through the consulting channel, and I don't think you can do that if you've been one dimensional, and you know I've always liked to do a lot of different things. I'm sure you do and, and you know, having those experiences just enriches you and allows you to bring wisdom and opportunity to the people you work with.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, and I think another cool part of your story is you kind of define for yourself what success was you know when you I love how you talk about you know being a father changed your life. I think I have said this a lot lately, like, yes, I would love to retire on a yacht and have a billion dollars in bank account, but also, more importantly, along that journey I want to have impact and I want to build people up and I want that's to success. To me, and it sounds like to you, success was also not just about money in a bank account.
Brad Douglas:It really was, and and honestly I mean you know that's one of the best decisions I've ever made was I gave up some things, some opportunity and some status to get to come home and have dinner with our kids every night and coach baseball and wrestling and softball and, you know, watch them run cross country and sing in choirs and and piano recitals and all of that. And the result was that we've got, we have three grown kids who are astonishing to me and they're so much fun to be around and are engaged in life and just killing it out in their worlds and building their lives right now. And I wouldn't trade that, that pay, you know, that payoff for anything I gave up in the world. So, you know, I took a step back, but I still then, when they got to college, got to move into the leadership roles that I, that I really wanted to have and, like I said, today I get to sort of pick and choose, you know, and and it's just, it's wonderful. We have, by the way, our first wedding coming up in three weeks.
Dr. Katie Ervin:So fun, well, and you know it first, wedding coming up in three weeks. So fun, well, and you know, I love to hear people talk about their family the way you talk about your family, because I feel the same way about mine. My husband and I tell people, well, we've been married 24 and a half years and we're like, yeah, we love each other, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff, but we really genuinely like each other.
Brad Douglas:He truly is one of my favorite people in the whole wide world. Yeah, best decision. I ever made hands down in my life was not a business decision. It was marrying my wife. Yeah, barb is is, and when people meet her they go what are you doing with that schmuck? They're like really you settled?
Dr. Katie Ervin:I think people I always tease that you know, rob's the nice, kind, sweet Irvin and I'm the other one Because he's just when we met I was in grad school and he was working at Indiana State and like people will be like hey, katie, you want to go out tonight. I'm like I can't. I got a paper and they're like can Rob go out? And I'm like, wait, what Were? You just inviting me for him.
Brad Douglas:Yeah, we'd like you to come, but could you bring Rob with you please?
Dr. Katie Ervin:Right, right, bring your boyfriend. He's really funny. Don't encourage his bad behavior.
Brad Douglas:Yeah, exactly, yeah, we both do. It sounds like we both did really well and yeah, yeah, that is an important thing, but also the choice to prioritize your home life. I know so many leaders who who don't make that decision. Yeah, and, and it's all work all the time. You know building company and and making a lot of money and, yeah, I gave up. You know revenue opportunities, but I wouldn't trade that for anything, and so anyway, not to care that any more than we already have.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, I think it's so great and I think you know, as leaders, as we go through our leadership roles, it's important to model that behavior and, to you know, share the stories and I know you do keynote speaking and you work with teams and stuff like that and I love when we talked, you talked a little bit about the five jobs as a leader. Can you share that with the audience?
Brad Douglas:Yeah, yeah, I believe there are five jobs of a CEO is what that's the way I used to speak about. It was the jobs of the CEO. But as I, as I've lived with the, what I think are the five main jobs, I've realized it's not just a CEO, it's of leaders, and they can be applicable to leaders. And so the first one is I believe the leader is responsible for not only helping set the vision and where you're going and what our goals are for the organization, and creating this inspiring vision of what we can be and how we're going to impact the world. Then you're responsible for also communicating, communicating, communicating that and living it. You have to live it. You have to understand your values as you do it. So you have to create alignment, basically, and then communicate about that alignment. And there should be nobody in your organization, no matter how large your organization is, whether it's thousands and I've run that versus 50. Nobody should be unclear in terms of where we're going and why we're doing it.
Brad Douglas:And and in this a fun journey that we're on because we get to have this impact. Yes, that's number one. Number two is then I believe the leader of an organization is responsible for finding the right people. You're responsible for the people, that the leader doesn't run the company alone. You can't do anything by yourself. So you better find great people and put them in the right as Jim Collins says in Good to Great. You know, put them in the right seats on the bus, right, you know that as well as anybody and then hold them accountable. But the important part of this is empowering them. You don't micromanage them. You go out and find great people and then you, you know, they know where the vision is, they know where you're going, and then let them do their thing and don't micromanage them and you will find that you.
Brad Douglas:That is a major step and pathway to number three of the five, which is building culture. Leaders are responsible for culture. All culture flows from the top and I don't care. You know it kills me. You've probably heard this in your line of work when they say you know, I've got a problem with my executive team, and then you get in there and realize no, they're not the problem, it's the leader. That's the problem, right, right and it's just it's.
Brad Douglas:It's so important and I believe it is the key to success is not just have articulating the vision and communicating that and finding the right people build the right culture. You know there's certain things that people want beyond salary and benefits. Number one is they want I'll give you the quick three, so this would be A, b and C under building culture. A is they want to be part of something bigger than themselves and understand that they're making a difference. If they're going to go to work every day, does it really matter? Or what is my piece? Where am I? The cog in a machine and why is what I do important?
Brad Douglas:Number two they want to be heard and respected. If they have an idea, they want to know that somebody's at least heard it and if they if you can't do the idea, let give them the respect of telling them why. Or hey, I want you to keep bringing this is fantastic. Number three they want to be appreciated. So having a leader call somebody out in front of a room of people and say we are here because of the work of Katie Irvin today, she killed it and here's why. Yeah, think what that does to that person's day when they go home and they talk to their family and how they feel about their job. And so few leaders take the time to actually walk in and thank somebody or show appreciation. And and you can do it you can combine all of those at once. You can have a conversation where you say, because of what you just did, you've helped us further on the path to our vision and I just want to thank you for that.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah it's so inexpensive, Like it's so inexpensive to say thank you, and it will pay dividends.
Brad Douglas:Well, and so many leaders they get. When they get up in front of people and their board is thanking them or their constituents are thanking them, the smart, savvy leaders go listen. I appreciate all this, but it really you know Bob and Joe and Jenna and and Irene that deserve all the credit. They're the ones who did this. Let's all give them a hand, that type of thing, and deflect so anyway, that's. Number three is culture, and then managing up.
Brad Douglas:I talk about CEOs. It's the job of a CEO to manage a board, assuming they have a board. If they don't have a board, or if you're just a leader in the company, then your constituency or your boss understanding how to not just manage your team but to manage up and and understand what the politics of the organization are. In some respects, it's having that executive presence, but if you have a board, managing a board is an art presence. But if you have a board, managing a board is an art. And it's actually where I do, as we talked about earlier, some of the consulting that I do with boards and CEOs.
Brad Douglas:The fifth one, though, I think is the one that most people forget about and that I call this bringing opportunity to the organization. It's the job of a CEO or a leader in the organization to bring opportunity. And what do I mean by that? If, if, uh, when I was a CEO, um, friends in the business community would come to me and go hey, you know, now you're the head of the organization, you can, you can, um, uh, you know, sign my company up and we'll work together.
Brad Douglas:It's like, eh, that's not how I work. I empower our people. So here's what I'll do I will bring your opportunity to my staff, to our staff, to our leaders, and and it's up to you then, once I bring you in the door, to con to convince them that this is a value. If they say no, I'm sorry, we can't do that Because, again, I empower them, I don't make the decision for them. If they say no, I'm sorry we can't do that Because, again, I empower them, I don't make the decision for them. If they say yes, then yay, I get to work with a friend. Yeah.
Brad Douglas:But the opportunity I bring, the opportunity you can do that by speaking. You can do that by writing books or being an ambassador in the community, sitting on boards, building relationships, and really, when it comes down to when you bring opportunity, is building relationships in the community, where then you can bring that to bear on your vision, your mission and your organization. And I know so many as I'm sure you do so many CEOs and leaders of companies that get so involved in the day to day of their company they don't take the time to look out and realize your job is to be an ambassador and to bring opportunity that helps the organization and helps your vision.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, I mean you're so right. I mean they're so in the weeds and so involved that it's like how are you, you know, inspiring your organization when you are so worried about? You know, did so-and-so, you know, get staples the other day or this, or that? It's like relax.
Brad Douglas:Yeah, no, but it's also having lived through it, you know. Number one the reason that I make a living as a coach is it is truly as lonely as people tell you it is when you're sitting at the top. You can't go to your board and say I don't know what I'm doing here. You can't go to your constituents or your teams or say, yeah, I don't know what to do here. And so it's easy for a leader of an organization to get sucked into the day-to-day because their time is needed and people want their time is needed and people want their time, and that becomes comfortable. Well, they need to be out of their comfort zone and remember that there's an outer world out there, not just your industry, but get involved in the community, because that is going to turn into something magical at some point when you are aware of that and are intentional about that. So yeah.
Dr. Katie Ervin:I think those are the five.
Brad Douglas:Those are the five.
Dr. Katie Ervin:I love it and I'm sure I love the bring opportunity and being an ambassador, because I know I have talked to organizations that wanted to bring us in and it's the CEO that's, you know, bringing the sledgehammer forward and we're going to bring you in and it's going to be great, blah, blah. And I'm like, can I talk to the rest of the leadership team, like, are they bought in? Do they agree? Because what I find is when you know, when one person brings you in and they don't have the buy-in of everybody else, hopefully you're doing a fantastic job and they love it. But a lot of times there's resentment of oh okay, here you go again. You know Bob's bringing something in again and they get tired of it.
Brad Douglas:Here's one of Brad's best friend. You know, bdm, you know, no. No, I mean, I would lose credibility as a leader if I forced people to do business with people that I'm buddies with or that are, you know, friends. That's not how you run an effective ship, in my opinion.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, I agree, and I tell people all the time like I never want to go into meeting someone thinking I'm going to do business with them. What I want to do is build a relationship. If there's a natural fit, that's lovely, but the cool thing is there's a lot of great people doing similar work to what I do and I'm not a good fit for everybody, just like you're not a good fit for everybody. And so let's, let's get the right people in the right seats, because then they have great experiences and they thrive.
Brad Douglas:One of the great lessons I learned. I did sales for a lot of. I ended up sales for two different companies when I came out of the nonprofit sector and one of the great lessons I learned was that building relationships first matters, and there's all sorts of lessons that can be learned when you actually have to go out and develop business and going in and telling everybody how great you are, versus listening and figuring out if you're really a fit and being willing to tell them you know what. I don't think I am a fit in this situation, but I can get you to where you're wanting to go because I know other coaches or I know other people that do what we do and I'll help you do that Well. That builds a huge amount of goodwill and it also sets you apart, because everybody's so desperate to get business. Oh yeah, we'll make it work. We'll make it work.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's hard. You know when you're starting a business or you know when things slow down. It's hard not to be desperate, but you got to stay true to your values and what you want to do.
Brad Douglas:Right, yeah, I agree, and being a consultant has been a real eye-opener. Let me tell you.
Dr. Katie Ervin:I know there's sometimes you're like I'll take anything, we'll write a book about going from being in organizations to doing consulting. That has been an interesting journey. Yeah, I love when people say I'm going to start my own company so I have more freedom, or I want more time with my family, or you make it look so easy. You know I want more time with my family. Or you know you make it look so easy. I'm like, well good, I'm faking it because I'm exhausted and it's not easy at all.
Brad Douglas:And you still have kids at home, right?
Dr. Katie Ervin:Well, not really. I mean 20 and 22.
Brad Douglas:So I have young adults, so their brains aren't fully formed until they're 25.
Dr. Katie Ervin:I'm just trying to keep, luckily, my 22 year old. He's working full time, he's paying his bills. I'm just trying to keep him like in the guardrails. And then my daughter, who's 20, I love her so much I think she's really trapped. You know, a 35 year old woman trapped in a 20 year old life. Yeah, yeah, I like the way you talk about your family too.
Brad Douglas:Yeah, I like the way you talk about your family too.
Dr. Katie Ervin:They are so cool. I we we every weekend. Now that Abby's down at Pittsburgh state we get to spend so much.
Dr. Katie Ervin:She's 13 hours closer, I guess, so we could see her all the time, and my son just shifted his work schedule. So I mean, we feel like all of the Irvins have gone back to college. We're having so much fun. Well, I'm going to pivot us just a little bit and I promise everyone follow along. I know this is a tough political time. This is going to come out after the elections, but we're not going down that road of that. I am just fascinated by your work in DC and in the White House and everything. So can you talk a little bit about the lessons you learned around politics and persuasion and all of the things that you did? I think it's fascinating.
Brad Douglas:Well, I think you know, that's a great question. I think that these lessons that you learn in politics, which is really the art of persuasion, are applicable to business development and to growing a business and to being a leader. I think they all cross fit right. I would say there's three or four things that will come to mind immediately. The first one is be a great listener and listen first. Listen first. Don't force your view on anybody else right off the bat. Hey, you know, nobody wants to hear it, nobody cares. You know, shut up when you're listening, then you begin to hear things that you wouldn't hear if you were talking. So that's number one Listen and watch what's going on. See the whole chessboard. Number two ask great questions. While you're listening, ask great questions. Don't just yapper, but ask great questions. And that is one that's really applicable also in persuasion and sales. Right, be the one asking questions. Don't be the one vomiting on somebody, like I used to do all the time, telling them how great this company, we've got the greatest product ever, and you really should hire us to do this. And when I first started out in sales, that's what I was doing, because, you know, I just knew I was working for the best company. Ever Nobody cares. If you ask great questions and learn from their perspective what they're dealing with and why they're doing what they're doing and what they need and where their pain is, then you can go into seeking to give value to them first, without any obligation on their end. How can I be helpful to you is the first question that you should ask somebody Once you've gotten through hearing their story or listening, or figuring out where they're coming from on something. Okay, how can I be helpful to you?
Brad Douglas:The fourth one, though, is always try to look for a win, win, we've, we've. You know you want to talk about politics at a macro level. One of the things that concerns me is there's not a lot of critical thinking going on in the country right now, and there's also not in our system. Our system that has been built in politics is to compromise, and when you don't have people that are willing to compromise, that's why nothing gets done right. So find the win-win and be willing. You might have to give in a little bit on your side and give up some things in order to get what you want, and always see the bigger picture. So those were. Those are some quick hit things that that, I think, are great lessons when you work in politics.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, I would imagine too, to be really good at it. I mean, it takes this level of humility and checking your ego at times.
Brad Douglas:That's hard to do in politics, Let me tell you. A lot of people have ego, but the ones that are the most successful are the ones that are quietly behind the scenes trying to get things done and trying to look for the win-win and listening and watching and asking how they can provide value to the person they're trying to work with.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, I love it. I my bachelor's is in sociology. My kids say I'm nosy. I tell them I'm just studying people, Like I'm fascinated by human behavior. I just could sit and watch all the time.
Brad Douglas:Yeah, yeah. Well, that makes you good at what you do, you know.
Dr. Katie Ervin:I try. I try Some days better than others. Well, and you and I both have a passion for nonprofits and I really love the work that you do with boards, and so you know, before I get to my final question, that I ask everybody I really want to spend some time talking about the work you do with boards, and so will you kind of share a little bit about that, maybe some tips for new board members or even boards that are struggling?
Brad Douglas:Sure, I love board work. I love I have served on boards, I have reported to boards, I have chaired boards in our community and it's just, it was fascinating. One of the things that happened to me early on, when I was starting to serve on boards, was I got sent to a board governance conference and seminar and it was in Vancouver. So I went and I didn't know anything. I was sitting on boards and nobody had taught me how to be on a board and what your jobs were. And then I went to this conference. I was like, oh my gosh, it was this whole world. So I became a board governance geek. So I you know that's the nerdy side of me. So what I do today is I try to help people on board get to where they're trying to go, help them solve problems, but also understand what your job is, because a lot of boards are highly dysfunctional. They don't understand what they're supposed to do. So, number one I help them understand board governance and what their actual jobs are when they sit on a board. Number two I talk to boards about what are the 12 characteristics of high performing boards. There are about a dozen things that really great boards will do. They'll do most of them. I work with them in order to be strategic. Strategic thinking is what boards are supposed to be doing and there are three types of strategic thinking and most boards don't even realize what type of strategic thinking when they do it that they're actually. They're actually processing. So and sometimes I'll even you know you talk about working with boards that will help them either find an interim CEO if they're in a transition phase, or serve as an interim CEO ourselves.
Brad Douglas:But I would say, basically the two primary ways I help is I do a board governance 101 for boards and sort of set everybody up. Here are the major things, here are the three types of strategic thinking, here are the 12 characteristics of high-performing boards and the other one I'll do. A lot of times they just want they're already operating at a pretty decent level and I'll just try. Lot of times they just want they're already operating at a pretty decent level and I'll just try to help them become the 12 characteristics and share with them what those are. And occasionally I'll get asked Katie, you know, can you help us be strategic in our succession planning or finding new board members? How do we do that, those types of things with boards? So I find it fascinating work and you meet great people when you work with boards who are all trying to do good things.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah yeah, I love serving on boards. I always tell people ask me I'm really super good at saying no, I will only do two boards at a time, so I can. I'm one of those people like I will give everything I have to it. So I want to make sure I can wave a flag Like I'm not just filling up a resume, that I'm really there for the board, which I think is important.
Brad Douglas:Yeah, I'm considering. I got asked recently to serve on a board and it's appealing to me, but I I have not said yes yet I I've been insisting on I want to sit down with the CEO first and understand, because the CEO is also the chair and created the organization and I yeah, which which is always interesting. So I want to sit down and understand what that person's views are and where they want to take it, because I'm not somebody who just sits on a board. You're going to get, you're going to get a hundred percent. And if I go in and I'm not, you know, if I'm working with a CEO who's on the board and chairing the board, who already knows where they want to go, and the board is just window dressing, then why waste your time?
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting. I find when I go on boards like I have that expectation of you know doing work and being asked to do things and I used to report to boards. I worked for a couple of nonprofit mental health organizations. I loved going to board meetings. I loved sharing with the boards the greatness that we're doing. And it's always so sad to me when staff members are stressed out to me with the board because it's like what are we doing? Why are we creating that environment?
Brad Douglas:Well, back to the jobs of a leader. When I was reporting to a board, I made sure that I brought staff in and they got to present to the board, because it does a couple of things. It develops the people, develops their skills right. It also allows them to shine and again helps give them the feeling that they're part of something big and that they're really contributing. And the board members get to know your staff that way and realize what a great organization we have and they feel good. It's a win-win for everybody.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree. I love the board work that I get to do and the people I get to meet, but I am always so surprised to your initial point People don't know how to serve on boards, it's just like a job.
Brad Douglas:And then they get in and go. What do I do?
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, and orientation is like.
Speaker 3:Here's what our organization does, and here's our facilities and here's this and here's that and here's the people.
Dr. Katie Ervin:But then there's no like. We don't care what you think, what color the lobby should be. That's not your opinion. To have Like we want, it's not your job, that's mine.
Brad Douglas:That's part of what we talk about in board influence. You're not a macro manager and you're not hands-off. You have to have a partnership and that is the key developing a partnership with the leader of the organization, and, and, and. The leader should see you as a resource. The board, if you're a board member, that is a great resource. I really love my board, we have great people on our board, et cetera, et cetera. It should be that kind of a symbiotic relationship where there's trust.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. Hopefully I'm going to put all your contact information in the show notes so hopefully there's some people leading boards out there that will reach out to you. I know there's some board leadership that I'm going to share the work you do. I'm just thinking. I love the boards I serve on, but it doesn't hurt at the beginning of every year to just do a revisit.
Brad Douglas:And that's what I get. I get called in to do those types of things. Literally, to them it's checking a box. But then once we get in and start talking about all that stuff, they get excited and they think, oh my gosh, you know we're going to do this, going forward and we weren't doing this. And oh my, you know, I'll have a CEO come up and say I just can't believe that you're telling you know they that they get to hear this my board because they're micromanaging me, and blah, blah, blah. You know that type of thing. So it's. It's always good for boards to, once a year, do something to better themselves or to better understand what their roles are as board members. Yeah.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, it's so cool. Well, so the last question I ask everybody on every show, this is one of my favorite. This is my favorite question To the level you're comfortable sharing what is the biggest leadership or career misstep you've taken?
Brad Douglas:Where do I start counting? I know. So I thought, when I get asked this question, um, I go back to when I was younger, um, and when, when you hope that that's when you make the majority of your mistakes when you're younger. But I made the mistake earlier in my career of thinking that equating that that's not the right word. I made the mistake of wanting to be liked more than I understood it later, being respected, yeah, so I was.
Brad Douglas:I I wanted to be the guy that everybody wanted in the room and, and you know, um, that that was just upbeat and positive all the time and not that's not what CEOs or leaders, you know your boss always wants to hear.
Brad Douglas:They want to hear the truth and understand. You need to be able to deliver tough conversations, have tough conversations, give people what you really think, as opposed to trying to, and I was never an ass kisser, I was never that, but I um, always. You know I could be, I could be conflict avoidant earlier in my career and, and fortunately for me, uh, I had enough mentors that I realized having tough conversations is part of the job of being a leader, and you can do it in a way where it's still respected, it's still kind you don't have to be a jackass to be a leader, you can do it while being kind and fun and all that, but you need to be able to deliver the facts straight and be able to say here's where we're going to go, here's what we're doing, or you're not doing what we need to do.
Brad Douglas:So you know, here's what we're going to do about that, and have those types of conversations. It's better, as a leader, to be respected than to try to be the most popular leader ever.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, you know it's funny. We do a program called um don't be nice, be kind. And it's really not nice to not tell people the hard truth.
Brad Douglas:That's exactly right. I love the way you put it. You actually are doing your job. When you tell people the truth, you're not. If you're if you're avoiding it or if you're avoiding having tough conversations, then you're not doing your job.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, and you're setting them up for failure, like that's why my book is you might be an asshole, but it might not be your fault. I mean, how many people have we like avoided that hard conversation with because we don't want to hurt their feelings or we're uncomfortable and it's they think then that behavior is okay?
Brad Douglas:I, you and I liked people and it's not easy when you know you're going to hurt them in some way through a decision that you've made, whether it's to fire them or whether it's to move them to a different role or to tell them they're not doing what they need to do, and and avoiding those tough conversations is not the best way to go. And fortunately for me, like I said, I learned. It took me a lot longer because I'm you know, I'm not the fastest car on the track, so it took me a little while to learn that. But once I learned it, I realized, as you said, you are actually doing your people a favor when you're being straight with them all the time and not avoid you know, not trying to make everything sound like sugar and candy.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I learned the you need to tell people the truth early. I didn't learn that you don't have to be messy. It took me a while to figure out like you can be honest without being brutally honest, like you don't have to hit people in the face with your honesty.
Brad Douglas:Right, right, you know they would push back and I'd go okay, yeah, yeah, that's a good point, right.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Right, you know they would push back and I'd go okay, yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Instead, a perfect way to wrap up. I cannot believe it's already been an hour. We could talk for forever. So I appreciate you so much. I look forward to continuing our conversations and continuing to learn from you. Thank you so much.
Brad Douglas:I'm flattered and privileged that you would want to have this conversation and anytime I can be helpful to you, please let me know how I can do that. Thank you very much for having me.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Oh, it is my pleasure. Well, I will put Brett's contact information in the show notes. Please reach out, connect with him, learn about the amazing work he does and is doing and, where it might be a fit in the work that you're doing out there, everyone. So thanks, katie, you're welcome. Thanks everyone for joining us and I will talk to you next time on the path to leadership. Bye, everyone. Perfect, stop recording.
