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The Path To Leadership
We podcast about strong leaders, loyal employees, avoiding burnout, and raising profits building strong cultures. Everyone is a leader, but the path isn't always easy. Developing critical skills to build stronger, more successful and profitable organizations.
The Path To Leadership
The Journey to Harmonizing Professional and Personal Goals with Michele Markham
Michele Markham, the visionary behind EAG Advertising and Marketing, shares her compelling journey from the corporate sphere to entrepreneurship, while juggling personal commitments. What does it take to transition from a high-flying corporate executive to the founder of a vibrant agency? Michele offers a fascinating glimpse into her world, where professional ambition meets personal authenticity. Her story is not just about career success but also about finding balance and fulfillment in both personal and professional realms.
Building a team that thrives on trust and mutual respect is at the heart of Michele's business philosophy. In our conversation, she emphasizes the importance of nurturing an authentic workplace culture where every team member feels valued. From the challenges of transitioning from a large company to a small business, to the art of managing autonomy without veering into micromanagement, Michele candidly explores what it means to lead with empathy and clarity. We touch on the dynamics of team chemistry and the delicate balance between allowing freedom and ensuring accountability, always with an eye toward fostering a supportive and collaborative environment.
In an era where work-life balance is more critical than ever, Michele opens up about the trials and triumphs of being a working mom, navigating societal expectations, and supporting each other in breaking corporate barriers. Her insights into the unique challenges faced by women in business, from early career competition to the pressures of conforming to traditional corporate cultures, offer a powerful reminder of the importance of inclusivity and mutual support. Michele's reflections are both inspiring and empowering, providing a roadmap for anyone striving to harmonize professional aspirations with personal life, while championing a future where all voices are heard and valued.
Follow Catalyst Development on LinkedIn @catalystdevelopment, @drkatieervin, @jennascott
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Hi everyone, welcome back to the Path to Leadership. I'm really excited for this conversation today. It's with someone that we were just talking. We have a lot of mutual connections, but we've never met so excited to welcome Michelle to the podcast. Hi, michelle, hi, thanks for having me, of course. Well, and then I confess that right before we got on to start recording, I was stalking you and found out that you're a Jeep girl as well, so I know you're going to be fabulous.
Michele Markham:Yes, yeah, jeep wranglers, jeep people know Jeep people.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Right, right. I wrote a blog a while ago about how, if everyone could just have the Jeep mentality like we do, the Jeep wave, no matter who you are. We don't see gender, we don't see age, we don't see race, we see nothing, we just are. Like you're a Jeep person, you must be amazing.
Michele Markham:Yes it's a Jeep thing, so you get it. And the ducking. Do you do the ducking?
Dr. Katie Ervin:I do do the ducking. Do you do the ducking? I do do the ducking. And it freaks my husband out, especially when the doors in the top are off, because people will just stop at a light and throw a duck at you.
Michele Markham:Yeah, and so you know, I had a Jeep, I had a Wrangler before I had kids. Then you have to have a safe car, and so now my kids got old enough where I'm like I've got a Wrangler again, you know, and it's the mom Wrangler, it's four doors. So I've, I've advanced, but the ducking didn't exist my first go around, and so this was a whole new thing for me. But I'll tell you, my kids love it, Love it.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, well, and I bought, I got the four door, but I got an, a, um, an automatic, because I thought truly that I was going to hand this down to my daughter and then I was going to get my like big girl, like automatic or manual, stick shift and two-door and my weekend Jeep. And then my daughter got a cute little Volkswagen Beetle convertible oh, that's cute. It's darling, but I was like all right, well, I like my bright orange Jeep. Yes, oh, you've got the bright orange.
Michele Markham:Oh, that's awesome.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, it's so fun. So all right. Well, can you introduce yourself to everyone who you are, what?
Michele Markham:you do all of that good stuff, Sure. So my name is Michelle Markham and I am that good stuff, sure. So my name is Michelle Markham and I am owner, ceo, president of EAG Advertising and Marketing and we have been in business since 2003 and we're a marketing agency. We're a marketing advisory and creative agency if I try to use our brand language and everything, but basically it's one of those things. We're not a consulting firm, we're not a fractional firm. We advise and we have a team that can do all of the work. We can do all of it, we can do a portion of it, we can do the things you can't or won't do, but all things advertising and marketing for entrepreneurial businesses, advertising and marketing for entrepreneurial businesses. Eag actually stands for Entrepreneurial Advertising Group, so it's really to focus on those entrepreneurs and those nonprofits with an entrepreneurial mindset.
Dr. Katie Ervin:I love that and that's really how Catalyst Development got hooked up with you, because Theo on your team, who is so fantastic, came to a program we were doing for the KCK Chamber and ran up and said here's my card. We need to have you on our podcast. So it was really neat because I'd seen EAG, you see it around, but I didn't know what it was. Yeah, yeah.
Michele Markham:Yeah Cool, Good job Theo. He better be listening, right, yeah he better.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, so can you talk a little bit about your career journey, like how did you end up opening EAG, or so, what, what road brought you here?
Michele Markham:want to edit because I'll talk a while. So I started in marketing. I found a job that I really liked and I worked at that company for 21 years and started as an account executive, so managing some accounts, selling in some new business, and just went through so many different, I guess, roles within the company. I loved it. We were a national agency. We were owned by, at that time, the world's largest holding company and I was the textbook. I didn't start quite in the mailroom, but I started as an account executive and eventually became the president of that agency and I loved it.
Michele Markham:We worked with some really great national brands. We had offices in, you know, different cities of the country. So you know I was in. We had an office in New York at one time. We had our holding company was in New York. We had offices in Chicago, louisville, la, pittsburgh, and so just getting around to our offices, where our people were, was a lot of travel, but then our clients were all over the place. So it was constant travel, constantly learning new industries. You know just, I loved it. I was like they're taking me out of their toes up and then I finally my husband and I had been trying for a long time and finally finally had a successful pregnancy with my daughter. And so, being over 40, it was this is a high risk pregnancy, even though the pregnancy was really smooth and smooth and she's great and all of those types of things.
Michele Markham:But it was that realization of I can't do this job. I mean, this job literally requires travel every week. And so did that transition out while I was pregnant, hung my shingle of you know, okay, I'll be an advisor, a CMO, you know what do you need? I just I can do something. I just can't travel a lot. And had a client actually that was like, okay, come be my CMO for a year. And you know, we were both like we don't know exactly what this looks like, but we'll do it. And so I was like, all right, I'll do that. And then kind of figure out what I want to do and what kind of job I can have that that doesn't travel all the time. And then I had my daughter and you know so I'm holding her and looking at her and I'm like I will never leave you, I will never have a job where I travel ever again, and and you will always be by my side. So then I'm like, oh, what am I going to do? And so I ended up.
Michele Markham:I'd worked a lot in that career with a lot of franchisors, a lot of franchise groups, and so then I decided to well, I'll buy and open a franchise. So bought three title marketing or title boxing. Title marketing See, I was always needing to come back to marketing, but title boxing, club franchises in the Dallas market and I was like, this will be so simple, it's. You know, it's a quick flight down there, I can take the kid. I had a great, great general manager, you know. So all of those things, but I'm very hands-on in my business. And so it was like, okay, well, so I've got that, but I'm not really in there and I need to figure out something in Kansas City.
Michele Markham:So my daughter was less than a year and Paul Weber had started EAG Advertising and Marketing and he and I had a history where, several years ago, la Petite and he'd been in the marketing industry in Kansas City for a long time. And so a long time ago, la Petite Academies was headquartered in Kansas City and they had childcare all over the country, but they were headquartered here and he was. He headed up their marketing, and so he became a client of ours and I think he was like the one client in Kansas City you know it's always everywhere else, but it was a client in Kansas City. So I got to know him and it wasn't very long into that that I can remember it like it was. Yesterday, after a meeting, he pulled me aside. He goes this is probably the last time you're ever going to see me. He's like I am not meant to be client, I need to be agency. I'm like come work for me.
Michele Markham:So he came to work for me and then after that he started EAG, and so we like to joke about I was the last boss he ever had and it's what made him realize he wanted to become an entrepreneur, all of those fun things. But he built this great business and we always kept in touch. We'd get together for drinks, we'd, you know, chat back and forth, and so it was a let's, you know, let's get together for lunch and let's meet the baby. And by the end of that lunch it was talking about me coming to EAG, which, I know, going into the lunch neither one of us had had on our minds. And so so did that, kept the kept the title boxing clubs for, you know, two or three years, I can't remember we ended up selling them.
Michele Markham:I'm like I am focused. I mean it was so exciting to get involved in my community. I mean I've lived here my whole life, had never really been involved in the community. So getting involved in the business community, all of those things had had another kid, you know, a couple of years after starting there. So I've got my daughter and I've got my son and it just worked into, you know, a minority ownership and then a succession plan and boom, here I am.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness Well and what I always talk to people about. You know being open to the universe and, like you just never know, going into that lunch Like if you weren't open to whatever the universe was trying to tell both of you um, that's really important and and I can only imagine shifting from you know, being there and being the boss to then shifting to being the business owner. Well, it's a wonderful opportunity. It's also very challenging. So what was that shift like?
Michele Markham:Probably the biggest part of it is it's kind of that realization that everything I do, everything I do, any business decision I make you know, sometimes the look on my face, you know, walking through the hallways of the office, you know everything I do really relates to employees in terms of them thinking how does this impact me? It's realizing that, like you know, clarity on everything that we're doing as a business, especially being a smaller business, it for them to have clarity. It also provides them security and I just it's, and I've always, you know, being boss but not owning the company. I've always appreciated my employees, I've always appreciated my coworkers, but it's something about about being the boss of a business. It's like I feel like they are literally honoring me by by choosing to work for my at my company and to work for my company. And I don't mean, you know, honoring me, like you know, oh, michelle, you know, but but it's just one of those things. For them to put their livelihood in my hands is giving me such trust, and so it's that realization that I must trust them back and I must give them a reason to never lose that trust in me.
Michele Markham:And that's weighty, I mean that, that that stays with me. So I think that's that's different, even though, you know, at a larger company it was one of those things you know. It's like, oh, these big, well-known brands and all of this responsibility and all of that is great and you still felt responsibility, but it's it's something a little bit different, especially with all of the options, not just in in marketing or advertising, but all of the options of places to work. Like that, okay, these people, they, these people, you know, put their, put their chips on me and I need to not let them down. Yeah, that's, that's, that's the weight.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, I can so relate because two years ago, when I left Park University to start Catalyst Development and I looked at the team that was with me and said, hey, I'm going to start this company, and they're like all right, where are we going? Now I didn't steal, like Park offered everyone a buyout to leave. They were reducing staff. But I was like I'm going, you know I'm leaving. And they're like cool, where are we going? Yeah, and I was their boss there, but it wasn't my money and being the boss here, like I tell people I've never had more pressure in my life. I've never slept better because it's my pressure. But but it is that like I don't want to say heaviness, but it's that like, oh, you're putting a lot of trust in me to keep your, keep your house going as well and and um, that's, that's an awesome responsibility to have it is and it's it's.
Michele Markham:It is just different than you know. Not that I ever looked at my my um career before as, oh well, if I mess up, I'll find another. I know I'll find another job. I didn't look at it that way, but there's just. You know, if I mess up now I'm affecting, you know, many others.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know it's. People tease me all the time because I wear green, like catalyst green, it's catalyst colors, everything's green, and they're like, well, jenna doesn't wear green every day and it's like, well, it's my color, it's my brand, it's my, my company. But you know the, the decisions that the, the team, make, it's okay, like I, I fully trust them, but the decisions I make, I worry about the impact it has on the company and on them, like I don't want them to ever say who am I working for, right? Ugh, yeah, yes, yeah, well, and I've met some of your team there. I haven't met everybody, but I have really loved them when I have met, and building strong teams can be very challenging. So how do you build a strong team, especially with a small organization? What do you focus on?
Michele Markham:Oh, it's so much, but I think it really comes down to chemistry, and so it's one of those things that when we are looking to add someone on our team, it's not a simple process and it's not a short process and we've lost candidates that probably would have been great. But I can't risk not making sure. You know, I tell, I tell candidates when they come in, I tell them they need to be interviewing us just as much as we're interviewing them, because it's it's got to be right. So it's, you know, it's getting that right person that can, that can align with that. But then it's really, you know, and I know companies have mission statements and they have values and other things. But if you're living your values, if you're being extremely authentic, you've got that chemistry part. But then you're doing everything else that you can to make them feel valued, to make them feel like they have a voice.
Michele Markham:I think we have to practice some principles. We can all disagree without being disagreeable and we've got to do that. I think we all know we have to do business in a kind way. It's very different than when I started in business authentic, and if I, if I could figure out a way to do it the right way, I would get away. I would. I would get rid of all titles, and you know we're all coworkers and we do talk about that. I mean, we are a very flat organization and we want people to be able to make their own decisions, but we want them to know if they're not confident in a decision, they've got somewhere to go. We want, we want people to realize that you know their conversations with each other, with clients, with vendors, anything you know conversations about, you know about how can we do things better, not why did we do this and why didn't this work, and so it's.
Michele Markham:It's all of those things, and so I think it's it comes down to we've got to live. You know, mostly every day at work, we all have those bumps, but you know, live what we say we're going to be, you know. So everybody's on their best behavior at a job interview. Everybody's on their best behavior when they're interviewing people for a job. How can we continue to do that? And so that's why we have the process that we do. It's like you've got to see us on different days, everyone that comes in and interviews, they meet with the entire team and there's this, this chemistry check, and it's not for the team to go. You know it's like they walk out of that that room and they know, you know I mean the, the candidate knows, we know it's the right fit. And I think it's just making sure everybody knows their responsibility is to have each other's back.
Michele Markham:You know some of the old cliches you know there's no I in team even though there's me, but you know whatever. So you got to get past that. But it's that type of thing. It's like how can I help, how can I pick that up? And it is just getting those right people in the door and it's hard. I mean we've we've not just from our long process, but sometimes we've probably made the wrong decision on some candidates. Um, we've had some that um that we should have hired and didn't, and some that we hired that we shouldn't, and some that we thought were great and they didn't love us. So it's really hard. But once they're in there, if you're committed to building that team and not just having people do their jobs, I think that it helps that go a long way.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, I think that's so important and so much of the work I do is all around that I'm so passionate about it. And it's funny because one of the work I do is all around that I'm so passionate about it. And it's funny because one of the things when we were setting up this conversation was you know, you talked about the importance of autonomy, and you probably don't know this about me, but my doctoral research is about workplace motivation and employee satisfaction. So how do we create an environment where people are more motivated to go to work and, in turn, are happier, more successful, more loyal? And through that, I found like we've got to stop trying to figure out what motivates people and figure out what demotivates them, like what on their first day of work, they're super excited to be there, but what are those things, big and small, that take it down?
Dr. Katie Ervin:And so my research showed three things, which is one is you've got to hire the right people. They've got to feel like they belong and can be their true self, which sounds like you do. They've got to have the training and support. Do they have all the tools and resources? But then the final straw is autonomy, which is so interesting that you said that that's important to you because my research shows that's critical to businesses. So I would love to hear your thoughts around how autonomy is important to you and to your business.
Michele Markham:Yeah, it's funny, as you were talking, I'm writing this down because it's like that what demotivates people? Because we do focus. I mean I'm just thinking of a goal review I just did with someone and I'm talking about, you know, we need to find what motivates so-and-so, and you know it's like, oh, what if we looked at what demotivates them? And that can be eye-opening and maybe sometimes taking a hard look in the mirror at you know what can demotivate, but oh, that's fantastic. So, yeah, sorry, I was scribbling notes while you were talking. But yeah, you asked about autonomy and it's something I do believe in, but it is so hard, you know, I believe in it, it and I mess it up sometimes. I mean, I just do, I want to help and I want to let them be autonomous, but I don't want them to feel abandoned and when you see them miss a deadline, you want to jump in and micromanage. But instead you got to focus on figuring out the why, because, especially when you have a team that you know they care it's not just a, you know, I don't care, it's not that you know and then you have to wonder is it because we haven't instilled how important that this is? Are they overloaded and not speaking up because they've been given autonomy, so they think it's all on them. And so, you know, autonomy is really a big word and a big responsibility on all parties and I think sometimes we kind of throw it out there and it's overwhelming for the person we're trying to give autonomy to and it's different for everyone. So you know, it's not like I can follow the process sheet and just go dun dun dun, there you've given autonomy and it's different for everyone. So you know it's not like I can follow the process sheet and just go dun dun dun, there you've given autonomy and they are going to be so successful, awesome, it's just. Yeah, you know. And so so it's important to allow people to make their mistakes. It's important to realize that I've given you autonomy. And you know the way that I got to an answer of six was to do five plus one, but you did three plus three and that's okay and making sure that that doesn't bother me. But then it's also just allowing people to use their own judgment. And I remember you know I'm going to go back to 9-11.
Michele Markham:I remember that day. I was in Kansas City that day and everybody was gathered around the TV in the conference room, you know, just fixated and horrified. And I remember telling you know, my superior, but the managing director of that office you know the guy in charge I'm like you got to send everyone home, you got to let people go pick up their kids. They, they've got to do something to do that. And he said to me well, I've left messages for for my manager, but I haven't heard back from her yet. You know, she was in another office and that was like that was kind of I remember at that time just going, oh, man, just do it, you know, and but then it's like, you know, I kind of wanted to blame him and just go, just do it. You know, I'll go around and tell people, you know what is it. But then that was like my, I guess, first really conscious glimpse of oh, maybe she didn't give him that kind of autonomy and so he couldn't do that. So, yeah, it's really important.
Michele Markham:Like I said, I fail sometimes and the other side of autonomy that kind of gets me sometimes is um, you know, you look at it like I'm going to have my own business now and I get to make all the decisions and I have all the autonomy to make the decisions. But then it goes back to that responsibility that you have as a business owner. So sure, I have the autonomy to make decisions, but, you know, am I considering the impact on employees' morale, their workload, their job security, you know? And so in some ways I don't have all that autonomy, you know, to just go with what comes first, you know, and that carries on to client expectations and financial responsibility and legal and company culture and compliance and reputation. You know, it's like I can be pretty opinionated and you know so.
Michele Markham:Can I put a political sign out in my yard, or would we lose a client? And does that, you know, does that impact then my employees because we've lost a client? You know, I mean cut to the chase. I put the political sign in my yard, and you know, because you know there are some things that you just have to do, but all of that stuff goes through your mind. So it's like it's the autonomy that you want to give to your team and then it's the autonomy that you take on yourself that sometimes you have to realize I can't do this autonomously and I think as business leaders we have got to have people to reach out to. You know, I'm in a couple of peer groups with CEOs and it's really important to just be able to go. This is what I want to do. Is this a huge mistake? You know and talk it through.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, I think some level of autonomy is wildly important. But you're right, I mean, we all have people we're responsible to. Whether we you know our names on the company, there's still those. It's funny because I recently I know we don't call it Twitter anymore I still do because I'm old, I do too, and X is stupid.
Michele Markham:I'm saying it. Thank you, me too, x is stupid.
Dr. Katie Ervin:So I retweeted something. My husband came in and said should you have done that? And I sat there for a second and I breathed through it and I said you know what? But if someone has a problem with that, which was you know, how do we all come together and be kind to each other and be supportive and how do we share love with each other? If someone is angry with that, I don't want to do business with them, Like, I'm okay. I'm okay. If that makes you angry, I would rather know that, so I don't go into business with you, than to go into business and realize, oh, you're a lunatic, Right? No?
Michele Markham:it's so true and and you know I use the political thing as an example because it is so polarizing right now, but I have friends that are both parties, you know it's, it's one of those things. It doesn't have to be that way. But then sometimes there are just the basic human principles, like you said. You know, okay, if you're going to be mad because I, I wrote something about being kind, yeah yeah, that's on you babe.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah exactly yeah, yeah. And one of the things I learned so we just turned two and one of the things that I learned early in my business is, when you first start a business, it's like, yeah, okay, you got to check, let's cash it, let's move on. And it's like, yeah, but if you don't align with who we are as a business and the type of work we do, if we can't come in and make impact, I don't want to come in and have a relationship with you, because the people we do business with, the people that we're asking for referrals and testimonials from, we want to make sure that they're a good fit for us just as much as we are for them. And that's really hard at the beginning of starting a business, but it's important, it's it's, it's everything.
Michele Markham:actually, it's just critical.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's those roots and those values so well. So this is a beautiful jump over to you know running a business, being engaged in the community. You talked about your kids being a mom. That is so much. And I I talk especially a lot of times with women. I'll do keynotes on you know how we prioritize and spinning plates and trying to keep everything moving. What are the things you wish you knew? You know, maybe lessons you learned going in being a working mom and all of that good stuff.
Michele Markham:You mean like beyond, realizing that I was extremely selfish and that my fashion sense would become non-existence and that dry shampoo is my best friend. You know all of those. Yeah, I mean, it's all about being a working parent and I am going to say, you know, there are differences of women and men in the workplace, there are differences between mom and dads. But, working parent, you know, they all experience the challenges of the balance. To me, the biggest one is that and I didn't make this up, but it's you cannot do it all. You can't do it all and you have to be okay with it. I think that balancing work and parenthood can be completely overwhelming and you have to let go of perfection. You have to accept that some things will fall through the cracks. You're going to have to accept that you can prioritize things. You're going to have to accept that you can prioritize things and, and it's, it's just one of those things especially, you know, and and maybe shame on me, because before kids, I did make work the priority you know I'm in LA and you need me in Philadelphia. You, betcha, I'll get on that plane and I'll be there. You know, and you didn't do things and and you know, and I still was very close to my family and my husband and I have stayed married all these years with all of that. But it was just. It was just that priority of of realizing, no, you cannot do everything.
Michele Markham:And I even get frustrated with comments. I'll hear women say, you know, you can have it all, just not at the same time. I'm like, well, that's not having all bullshit, you know. It's like there are sacrifices, there are choices and that's okay, and I think we have to live with that. I will say that once I had a baby, I still stayed really close with a lot of people that I used to work with and it's like I felt like I was just apologizing to all of the working moms because I had no, I just had you know, hey, we're just gonna work a little late tonight and you don't realize everything. They have to juggle or I would do things like you know. Okay, I know our meeting is at 10 o'clock tomorrow, but let's fly in the day before so we can be rested and settled and instead of flying early and it probably was the right decision because you don't risk flight delays. But that's not what I was thinking about. I was just thinking I would like to get in there and be rested and settled before the meeting. But then you realize, okay, so they're not there to help their spouse with the, you know, or if there's a single mom, you know, with getting all all of those things about, I wish I'd realized that boundaries were so important.
Michele Markham:I feel like now with a family, I probably work more efficiently than I did without one, because it can't go into the night. But it's also setting those boundaries. You know, when I get home, a lot of times that phone won't, won't get picked up and if I then fall asleep it never gets picked up that night and people are like, why weren't you answering me? But you know, having those boundaries, I think it's realizing that guilt is inevitable. You know it's. It's flexibility is key. Lean on support systems, you know, be kind to yourself and know that that no matter, no matter what. You know it's like your career is really important, even beyond the. You know, hey, I'm, I'm contributing to the income and the wellbeing I think it's important to us to have have careers. And so it's like don't let, don't let mommying, you know, guilt you into not doing the things that you need to do for for your career, because I think your kids can really learn from you and how you handle things too. So that was a really long rambly answer.
Dr. Katie Ervin:I love that and so much is spinning through my head because I think so. My kids are now 20 and 22. So I kind of tease that I'm in the corner office of parenthood because they're really cool, I really like them. You know, you go from okay, I'm trying to raise you to be responsible human to now you kind of almost are responsible human. So I'm trying to raise you to be a responsible human to now you kind of almost are responsible human. So I'm still trying to keep you in the guardrails, but now we can be friends and it's it's an interesting dynamic.
Dr. Katie Ervin:But I also think about my girlfriends who made the choice not to be parents, and and so one one girlfriend in particular, she's a teacher, and so she always gets assigned like the early morning and the late nights, and oh, she'll do it. She doesn't have kids, and it's like I have things I'm responsible for too, and so it's it's these dynamics that are so critically important. And but I also feel bad when moms and dads have parent guilt as well. It's like it's okay to not be okay, it's okay to not be perfect, and sometimes it's in our not perfect moments that our kids will learn the most from us.
Michele Markham:Absolutely, because it's going to happen to them too. They're going to have non-perfect moments and I don't want them to ever see me beating myself up for it Certainly not me, you know coming down on somebody else for it, and I don't want them to do that to themselves. I mean, it's like you've got this one life and it goes back to something you said earlier just be kind. I mean, yes, have goals, get, get things done. You know it's like we have to do that, but I don't know. I think it's, I think it's something from um. I don't know when it all started, um, maybe before the nineties, but I feel like kind of the nineties and two thousands. It was just drive, drive, drive, drive. You know everything had to be if you're going to be a career person, it was all about work, and I love for it to not be all about work anymore.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah, I. I do a lot of talks with young adults and and even I mean I'm 48. So even you know, I think 48, 65, no matter our age like what we should focus on is what success means to you. Like, some people want to retire with $10 million in their account and have a yacht, and that's awesome. If that truly makes you happy and successful, good for you. But what does success mean to you? And then figure out how you achieve it.
Michele Markham:It's, it's so true. I mean I think about my dad, um's passed away now, but you know he didn't have this long-term plan and everything and he'd be like you know the proverbial you can't take it with you, you know kind of thing. But you know what he could do is he could stop in the middle of the day and go have a two-hour, you know lunch with a friend of his, or he could go explore something and that's good. I love that you work with young people on things like this. You know education is important, but real world and what you do with it.
Michele Markham:I know at EAG we use high school interns a lot, and part of it is that we want to give these students exposure to the marketing and advertising world to help them make decisions. It's almost cruel that kids go from high school to university or trade show or into a job and you know whatever they're expected to declare as this is my career or my major and know what they want to do for the rest of their lives, and so one of the things that we like to do is you know that quote unquote area of advertising and marketing is so broad and there's so many ways to go Analytics, account service, writing, design, operations, whatever and we like to give people who have interest in this field some exposure and what doing a really long way around this, because we get some really smart people doing some really good work and if we end up helping in this area, you know and what they're doing and how they think about things and they do not think about careers in the same way that that we did when I was that age.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Not, yeah, not at all and I love it. I do too. It's funny. I was having coffee with someone earlier today and I said we were talking about generational differences and I'm doing a lot of research in there to try to help companies like leverage all the different generations, and I said you know, gen Z is so phenomenal. And he paused and he said I've never heard him explain that way and I'm like, oh boy, okay, well, let's, let's back up a little bit. And he's a Gen X or like like me and like yoga. And so I'm like, let's, let's back up a little bit. And he's a Gen Xer, like like me and like yoga. And so I'm like let's, let's back up and kind of talk about and so having to like help people understand Gen Z is so impressive and have so many opportunities and are so brilliant, but we just have to learn how to help guide them and harness them and support them and love them and tough love them and everything. I'm really excited about our future.
Michele Markham:I am too. They see the world in a different way and they think through things in a different way, and, yeah, I'm excited for our future as well.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, good, I love it. Well, and I would be remiss, you know, as a woman who owns a business and you know there are unique challenges for us and I would love to kind of hear your thoughts on, as a woman owned business. What has that process been for you? And you know, how have you gotten yourself here?
Michele Markham:I do, I it is, and I I struggle with this one Um, and I struggle with my position on this, frankly, Um, because, on on one hand, you know I am woman hear me roar, I can do anything you can do. You know all of those, those types of things. And you know I was, I was named one of the business journals women who mean business and, and you know, an enterprising woman of the year and things like that. So I'm like, you know, women, women, women, and then when I think about it I think I'm probably not going to have a good answer for you is where this has come down, because I get down to like, when I think about one of the biggest challenges I've faced in my corporate career, it's like I had many more women I mean probably only women who were more competitive, more catty, less supportive of me than men and and, yes, as a woman in business or as a as a woman in the world, you know I had to deal with, you know, some men who had ulterior motives, you know, and things like that, but not all of them, you know, and in fact, very few, you know, when you look at the the course of my career and dealing with men. But it's it.
Michele Markham:It's like I had a lot harder time earlier in my career with the women thing, so then it kind of made me feel bad. I'm like I don't want to be known as a businesswoman, I want to be known as a business person. And you know, to this day it's like my, you know, my actual mentors are all men that have been, you have been, with me for years in that way. But then on the flip side, I was raised by a really strong woman, a really strong mom, a really strong grandma. I have really strong girlfriends. So when you've experienced that and then you experience those who aren't, I think sometimes it can it can come across as negative to be a woman in business. You know, I know it's like I want to probably say there are so many different perceptions with it and connotations. But yeah, you know, did I achieve something beyond what I ever thought I could achieve, Absolutely, Absolutely. And do I think a lot of that is because I am a woman, Because we are resilient and not that there aren't resilient men that we are resourceful, that we figure it out Absolutely, and I think that's a big part of being a woman in business.
Michele Markham:But there are also some negatives. You know there's wardrobe, hair and makeup. You know. I mean we all need to meet at a certain time. I guarantee every woman takes longer to be able to get ready, whether whether you have to do anything else, deal with kids, deal with anything else in the world it takes more time. Women need more time. It's a fact. It's a fact that I can't go out for a run over lunch and come back in and just go into a meeting. I'd have to have a complete redo on hair and makeup and, you know, clothes, and so there's just more to do, no matter what. And so it's not it's it's not an even playing field, but I think the more that we just realize and all of us, we're all people, we're all business people, we're all business owners, woman or man, we all have our strengths, we all have our weaknesses, we have our differences and yeah, I'm just kind of rambling because I really do struggle with my position on this.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, Well, I appreciate the transparency and the honesty there, because it I'm going to share something with you that I'm not sure I've said publicly, but I, yeah, here we go. When I started my doctoral research, I wanted to do demystifying the glass ceiling. And I'm not saying the glass ceiling doesn't exist, because it does, it does. However, so often there is a red stiletto on the top of the glass ceiling that is like nope, there's a woman up here, don't need another one. Like Nope, there's a woman up here, don't need another one. Uh, you know. And so, um, I, I, I want to do that. And my doc chair at the time said Katie, there is time for you to do. You do not need to stir up that hornet's nest like do the research to get the degree and then you can do stuff like that, but you need to.
Dr. Katie Ervin:And and I had a boss, actually recently in the last several years, say to me she was a woman and I was dealing with a man who just was treating other women horribly and and we both reported up to this woman and and we were in a one-on-one and I said I cannot believe that you're allowing him to get away with this behavior. And she sat back in her chair and she chuckled and she said Katie, you're, of all, people know how to deal with a man with an ego Like you. You should be able to handle this. And I told her. I said, first of all, you're so lucky that I am as old as I am and experienced as I am to understand that that is a absolutely ridiculous answer that you just gave. And, second of all, at some point I hope you look back and see that you're not the woman that you thought you were and we need to be protecting each other. Like, how dare you? But I really what?
Dr. Katie Ervin:I believe she was trying to protect her seat. She was trying, so she had to. She had to fit in. She couldn't be her true, authentic self. She had to be one of the good old boys to keep her seat and her voice. Because it was well known that the leader of this organization yeah, leader, big word for him the boss of this organization. The boss would put you in time out if you didn't follow his rules, and so she had to follow his rules, which meant she wasn't a girl's girl or a guy's girl. She was the boss's girl, which is it's a hard struggle which is it's a hard struggle.
Michele Markham:It's such a struggle and I do, you know, and and some of the, some of the women who, who wronged me along the way, it's like I, I do have, I do have, you know, feelings toward that. I kind of feel sorry for them. It's it's how they learned, it's how they were raised, it's how we were in business and you know they're I don't know. It's a hard one to answer but, like I love seeing, especially in Kansas City, there are so many great women leaders, I mean, and getting into this network of so many of the business owners in Kansas City that I mean we've got something special here. I mean, I just, I know I, you know, I was only a business owner in the Dallas market, but it wasn't exactly the same, but I worked all around the country, and maybe not as a business owner, in all of those times. But there is something special about the way people will help each other. They'll refer each other.
Michele Markham:I'm, I'm in a, I'm in a group of, of, you know, ad and marketing agency owners where we get together periodically and we talk about problems and we talk about things and we are very open with each other. And you know it's it's and it's, it's a, it's a group of women. We expand it. Some of the meetings are also some of the men, business owners. Either way, it's just having that trust to have those truly authentic discussions and I count on those. I look forward to those.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, that's amazing, and it's truly those rising tides. People ask me who's your competition in Kansas City, and I genuinely. There's a lot of people that do similar type work to me, but I don't see any of them as competition, because they're different, they do different things, they present in different ways, their programs are different, and so if they're a better fit, I'm more than happy to refer them, because I believe it will come back to me when it's supposed to.
Michele Markham:Right and it'll come back to you in so many different ways. I feel the same. I say that all the time, you know, because you're taught to let me understand my business, let me understand my competition, and I know I have competition. I know somebody can pick us or they can pick another ad agency, but there are so many great marketing agencies, you know, not just in Kansas City but nationwide, and there's more than one way to skin a cat. Eag can help a business and another agency can, and everything can be different, but it's just there's no reason to I don't know have that drive to crush the competition.
Michele Markham:And I just don't think that's what the world needs.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah. Jenna Scott, who works for me, says it beautifully. You know, it is so important that we all shine our light, just don't shine it in each other's eyes. Yes, yes, yeah, absolutely I love that. Yeah, I do.
Michele Markham:I say it all the time and I try to give her credit because it was like when she said that, I was like oh, that is summed up beautifully and it's summed up so beautifully because it speaks to different kind of learners to hear it that you get the visual and you get the words and, yeah, you know exactly what it means. I love it, yeah.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah Well, this has been so much fun. I ask the exact same question of everybody on every show to wrap up the show. So, to the level you're comfortable sharing, what is the biggest leadership or career misstep you've taken?
Michele Markham:Oh yeah, so there, I mean there, there have been so many and so it's hard to determine. You know what was the biggest, but I think overall, um, it's not like a concrete decision I made. That's a misstep. Um, cause, I think, to be effective you have to take risks and some work and some don't all that. But I think my biggest misstep is a repeat misstep and it's you know my mouth, how I use my words and how I use sarcasm.
Michele Markham:So you know by you know by my mouth, or how I say the words. I mean you know I say what I think and most of the time that's appreciated. You know truth to power, no passive aggressiveness, and I want that from people too. And and I'm not saying I can't filter it because I do, you know, I mean you have to, but the times I don't filter it and realize if I just taken a beat I would have held back in the moment or worded it differently, maybe I wouldn't have hurt, you know, someone, because it kills me. It kills me to hurt people's feelings. I hate it and I don't ever want to leave people with a negative interaction.
Michele Markham:But I know that sometimes I do much less now than in the past I've learned, and hopefully not often, but when I do it just makes my heart sink. And then you combine that with. You know, I grew up in a really sarcastic family, so I can flick something off sarcastically that just doesn't land or that leaves someone guessing or assuming that I meant something different than I do, and I I hate that when I do that I leave them with stress and worry and insecurity. And you know so I'm I'm always improving in this area. But it's a it's an absolute work in progress of learning to continue to be authentic, you know, because I can't turn that off, you know completely. But how to do it without causing harm to others, yeah, oh, I feel like we were meant to be together.
Dr. Katie Ervin:I am working on that. I tell people all the time it's great to be honest, you don't have to be brutal and and in my career I have burnt some bridges by you know I just want to tell you the truth. I never want to say anything behind your back, but you can say it in a way that's not like you know a two by four up against their head.
Michele Markham:Yeah, yeah, I had a client many, many years ago. She's still a really dear friend, but I remember her describing me to someone. As you know, michelle can can tell you your baby's ugly and you end up thanking her for it, and I you know. And at the time I was like, yeah, I you know, I say it as it is. And then I thought, oh, am I happy with that? I don't you know. So, yeah, so it is. It's just like I said, decisions can be everything, but it's like the mouth, the words. Words mean everything, yeah.
Dr. Katie Ervin:Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time and for sharing your story and and being so open. I really appreciate um getting a chance to get to know you a bit. Yeah yeah, this has been great, awesome. Well, thank you everyone for joining us on the path to leadership and I will see you next time. Bye, everyone.
